Happy Tuesday! It’s time for Coffee Talk. What’s on your minds this week?
Comments
Marie Msays
Michelle Reitemeyer: would you email me at familymon@earthlink.net? I have some questions for you about vaccines. When I click on your name, my browser won’t display your webpage, so do you mind emailing me? Thanks! PS — earthlink will send your email to my spam folder, but don’t worry, I check that folder every day.
Elizabeth B.says
Hi Anonymom! I graduated from Christendom 5 years ago this May, and I didn’t realize how much the price tag had gone up! I think the whole package when I started in ’99 was just $18,000 or so. When I said that what I got from my education was “priceless” I meant just that: it is an improvement and expansion of the quality of my intellectual and spiritual life that a particular price cannot be assigned to–a human quality that is non-quantifiable. But I certainly realize that living at school, paying professors, etc., etc., had a concrete price tag attached, and must be evaluated in that light.
melissa, I absolutely agree with you! And I really like your concept of “worthy” debt. Yes, an education (like a mortgage) is a worthy cause.
Just two more small points to consider about college education: firstly, I agree that taking 6-8 years for a degree can be worth it to be debt-free, but if one chooses that path, one should be aware that there is sometimes a good deal of cost in one’s social life. That is, friends graduate, get jobs, marry, move away, before you. If you make friends easily, this is probably a minor point. But for an introvert who makes only a few friends over a long period of time, this could make college a lot more difficult. Just another factor to consider. Secondly, I think the idea of working and saving for a year before college is a good option, as well as working for a year afterward while living at home.
Sandysays
Carmen, on College Debt.
I haven’t read any of the other comments, so please forgive me if I’m repeating. I would recommend against student debt, particularly for women. I have had friends who really wanted to stay home with their kids, but student debt prevented them from doing so. I thought that was such a shame. I think it also applies to men, but women seem more directly involved.
My recommendation would be to knock out two years of local college, with careful consideration of what the expensive school will allow to transfer. She can work her buns off, live at home and save up for 2 years at the expensive school. She can even dabble in a bit of short term investing, if she wants. Or even long-term, which could be used to pay off any debt incurred.
Congratulations and good luck!!!
cksays
Re: education of our children. The bottom line is that we all have an awesome responsibility to raise our children in the faith. It is a very difficult process no matter what you decide. It takes a lot of prayer to make the decision. If your kids are in a school your effort should be in being constantly vigilant of what your children are learning and doing in school as well as knowing about the friends they spend time with. If you are homeschooling your efforts are in your busy days of teaching, planning and curriculum choosing. This is not a responsibility to take lightly nor should the decision be taken lightly. With prayer you will know what is the right decision for your family each year.
momofsomesays
If you step back and look at all of this, it’s really rather amusing.
All of our emotions aside, it seems as if every Tuesday coffee talk ends up as: do what works best for your family!
(coffee cup “clink” to all of you!)
Clairesays
Hey momofsome, “clink” back at ya!
Danielle's booksays
…isn’t that what the basic summary of Danielle’s book? Do what works best for your family!
nice job momofsome!!
Catherine Postsays
To Diane,
I don’t know about others here, but when I have used ‘smileys’ in emails here, they have been because of my typing the characters in. I have never pasted a smiley onto Danielle’s blog.
Do you know how to make smileys with just a combination of maybe 3 typed keys? It’s pretty fun!
Here is a big smile for you, done with a colon, a dash, and a capital letter ‘D’! 😀
Dianesays
Catherine Post,
I stand corrected 🙁 and I apologize. I just cringe every time I get a ton of these in E mails from my In laws and know that within a week Hubby will get a call that their computer, which he built ,is not working again. Hubby grumbles to me and then goes and runs a spy ware sweeper and all is Ok again until they realize that their smiles are gone and download the program again ARGH ! Because of this I try to spread the word. Thank you for letting me know these ones are Ok. I will not admonish anyone about it again 🙂
I went to Ball State in Indiana. They had an excellent Newman Center. Actually they have a program where students can live there. It’s called the Christian Leadership Program and I was in it for two years (junior and senior year.) It’s a great program, we did an internship (mine was in High School youth ministry both years), and had to to a certain number of hours of cleaning, social time, and internship and we got free room and board!
On debt: CLP and having many jobs during college enabled me to graduate debt free! Of course I had $7 in my checking account, but hey – it was so worth it. I had a great college experience and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Now, my husband had some student loans and he went to Law school right after we were married so we have debt from that. That debt (and some other things) kept me from staying home with my daughter for the first year of her life. I had to work full time but luckily I was able to take her with me. We’ve been following Dave Ramsay’s debt reduction plan and in 4 weeks I get to go part time!! I’m so excited to at least be a part time SAHM. Our goal is to get me to stay at home full time. Pray for us!
Anonymoussays
🙂 😀
Lina Martinsays
beth,
what kind of job did you have that let you take your daughter to work?
You have to think about smilies now! I went to type ‘I was oldest of 8’ within parenthesis and saw a smilie in sunglasses pop up where the 8 and parenthesis were!
8)
On college debt: please tell your daughter not to overdo it.
My husband and I came from lower middle class families and knew that the opportunity to attend university would be on our own tabs. We both decided to enlist in the US Navy (without any regrets) to aquire employable technical skills and college money. I refused to allow my blue collar parents to dip into their retirements for me like so many of my friends did. As veterans, our classes (state school is covered by the GI Bill and the Hazelwood Act) are covered and the military afforded me the ability to see much of the European Theater:)
Right out of the gates my husband and I started having kids (and they haven’t stopped arriving 😉 I’m so glad we have $0 debt-except that pesky mortgage. My husband is a cop and still hasn’t completed his degree but gets paid just as much as his friends with Bachelors and Masters degrees with outsatnding loans. Sometimes the prestige of a degree doesn’t pan out depending on your career field. I have not completed my degree either, but I stay at home with our five kiddos-there’ll be time for that later.
I guess my point is that there are so many paths to take toward careers and education-they needen’t be pricey or traditional, and some offer unique opportunities.
analiesesays
Too late for tuesday but if anybody is still reading these, but my 2 girls, 4 and12, dance at a christian but not catholic dance studio and the older one is getting to really advance stuff and loves it. At the studio, they have a prayr at the begining and the end of class and sometimes have one of the students say the prayr. my daughter is worried a teacher will call on her to say it and she doesn’t know how to say a protestant prayr. what should she do?should she say a hail mary? would that cause problems?
please help. : )
Dance Studio: How about a simple “Our Father?” Everyone knows it everyone says it — she doesn’t have to worry about offending people, but it’s a good catholic prayer! =)
One last thought on college:
I think big state schools may be fine for extroverts. They attract a HUGE range of students, and if you work, you can find a group you fit in with.
BUT for an introvert who’s not great at making friends, a smalelr private school might be better. SInce these schools have very unique “personalities”, it makes it easier to find a good group of friends since the student bodies are somewhat self-selecting….
also, Interest Rate matters a lot on student loans. My husband and I consolidated ours when he finished grad school. Interest rates were low, and we got bonuses for electronic payment, on-time payment, etc.
Our rate (we consolidated about 4 1/2 years ago) is now something like 1.9% — practically free money. When parents have offered to pay them off for us, we’ve told them to invest the money instead and give it to us later— after all, they’ll get at LEAST 3% on their investment…..
I am troubled by a lot of the comments that seem to suggest that only “practical” education is necessary for a SAHM. The Catholic Church has an INCREDIBLE tradition of female intellectuals, and we also have a tradition of education as a means to perfect the intellect (to better understand Christ and his Church) rather than as simply a means to acquire professional skills. Education as a means to an end is really a very recent (and Calvinisty!) thing……
A good liberal arts education means that papal encyclicals are easy to read. It means you’ve learned how to argue forcefully yet cordially and can act as a better apologist. It means you always have something interesting to think about as you do neverending chores while surrounded by preverbal children. (Who can be bored when you’ve got Plato to think about?!)
It means you can understand the thinkers who influenced some of our greatest saints!
If your child is inclined in this direction, let her follow her dreams…. the church DOES need intellectuals… and especial orthodox woman intellectuals so we can take back “women’s spirituality” from the crazy godess-worshipper types!
Student loans are doable. We have a smaller house than we would otherwise, and only one car, but the joy of meeting Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Jerome, Thomas More, etc. in my Western Civ. Classes is so much greater than a little bit of extra cmfort would be!
(One downside of a liberal arts education– it inspires Booklust and you will never, ever be able to find a house that easily fits your library……)
8)
But once again, it depends on your kids… some enter college knowing exactly what they want to be and what they want to do. But if they love school and learning for their own sakes, liberal arts is the way to go.
OK… sorry for the babble…. but baby boy was nursing and I was glued to my chair anyway. Now, back to the laundry…..
Sorry if someone already responded to your comment, but I just had to throw in my 2 cents. My husband and I both graduated from TAC and had a total debt of around 50-60k. He went on to school while I worked. When he graduated with his MBA, I stayed home and we had our 5 kids. ( there’s a bit of overlap there, but we managed just fine…)
I would never trade that education for less debt. Not only did I meet my husband there, but I gained a moral and educational foundation that is hard to rival. In my opinion, that experience has no price tag. It is in college where most people find their “friends for life” and while they are there they definitively decide the path that their life will take. I’m sure most of our children would survive state schools… but I’d rather have my kids be enriched by their college experience. Ideally, that they emerge as stronger Catholics, bolstered by their intellectual formation and ability to reason and argue, and also see that they are not alone in this pursuit.
Again, to each his own… but I wanted to assure you that you need not “feel sorry” for those of us who have a Liberal Arts degree from one of those schools. I am very grateful and feel extremely blessed.
🙂
melissasays
Thanks, Megan & Deirdre for your posts. I truly enjoyed reading them. I wonder if you have heard of or read any works by Mary Reed Newland? Sophia Press has been re-releasing them lately. I have only read a few of the originals and I just love her style. Now, here is a woman who would probably avoid “unnecessary/unworthy” debt, but had a lot of kids (7?) and had SUCH a love for the Church and a way of making it clear that she valued education in women without being showy or empty.
My favorite so far:
We and Our Children
The Year and Our Children
The Family and the Bible
(she has a good one on saints whose title escapes me)
I love that she has such concrete and creative ideas for really imbuing our children with the faith. For me, it has been so helpful because I have the desire to raise good Catholics, but don’t always feel up to the task.
S.says
Thank you, Melissa, for your post. I too really enjoyed Megan and Deirdre’s thoughtful posts on the lifelong benefits of Catholic liberal arts education. And I love that you mentioned Mary Reed Newland. She’s inspired me as well. My mother’s dear friend (in fact, my brother’s godmother) was Newland’s sister, and so my mother knew her and recently gave me all the Newland books she had. Newland’s own mother was a doctor. I think she’s a shining example of the influence that a well-educated Catholic woman can have on her family, her Church, her culture, and her world. As Deirdre pointed out, there’s an incredible tradition!
Elainesays
“At home, my kids have learned to assume that people will be interested in talking about ideas. They assume that they will be treated with respect (more or less), and they assume that they ought to be polite and kind. They assume that they will have to be patient with people who aren’t their own age, and that it’s possible to carry on a conversation with someone who’s not your own age.”
Bingo. Mine, too. They go to public school by the way, but my husband and I are very seriously about our God-given responsibility for our children’s hearts, minds and souls.
This is what concerns me about the homeschool-public school debate. It’s as if ONLY homeschoolers will take the time and energy to actually engage their children. Not true. Parents can and should do that, wherever they choose to have their children taught math or science.
For a long time now, I’ve considered homeschooling. For a long time now, I’ve rejected it for reasons that have to do with my conscience and my family. But I haven’t rejected my responsibilities as a mother, I haven’t rejected my children or handed them over to “the state.”
If only homeschoolers and public schoolers would stop generalizing about each other!
I read with interest the eloquent post by the the homeschooled teen. It could have been written by my own teenager. We are not the great unwashed!
Here’s what I know: If you love God and your children, if you are engaged in the work of parenting, if you see yourself as responsible for educating your child no matter where they go to school, if your house is filled with the love of God, with books, music and wonderful conversation, you are probably doing well by your kids.
Whether you homeschool or public school or unschool or private school is secondary to HOW YOU PARENT!
Elainesays
PS: A close family member “homeschools,” which to her means enrolling her children in music, sports, weekly homeschool “schools” and so many other activities that they are home maybe one or two days a week.
Yet she has told me that her children will attend public school “over her dead body.” She clearly feels that our top-ranked schools are worthless. I disagree.
My high-school son, for example, isn’t on drugs, engaging in sex or antagonistic to other family members. In fact, he is writing a novel in his spare time, taking honors classes, happy to attend church and in every way a wonderful boy.
Even if you have chosen differently for your children, please allow for the possibility that public school parents, too, are raising Godly, well-rounded and creative children.
melissasays
S:
“All the Newland books she had…”??? Wow! What a gift! From your previous posts, I feel happy for you and your kids that they won’t sit idle, collecting dust! (the books, OR your kids.)
Regular Momsays
I’m not sure where some of you have read above that a Catholic woman should remain uneducated and avoid accruing college debt since she might later become a SAHM. It seems to me that everyone who has posted agrees that advanced schooling is important. WHat we don’t agree on is to whether anyone (read men & women) should acquire great debt in pursuit of that education.
And, while I’m at it ;-), I’d like to mention that it is possible to understand and appreciate/understand literature, philosophy, science and the arts without attending a small private Catholic college at $25k a year. Some of this attitude comes off to me as a form of “elitist Catholic royalty”. To be in the club you have to have had over 4 kids, home schooled and send your kids to the “right” Catholic colleges. Give me a break!
Elaine: Loved your post!
mariesays
If somebody would have sat me down and said, “Look, you’re not wealthy and neither is your family. Study literature if you like, perhaps as a minor, but major in business or communications so there’s some chance somebody will hire you to be something more than a glorified secretary when you get out of here,” that person would have done me an invaluable service.
–This happened to the kids ( and son in law) of a good friend of mine. There is no disputing they enjoyed their time at the Catholic College, but unfortunately, once they were done, they had to go on to a regular university and almost completely *start over* to get into a field that would produce a sustainable income.
LadyHattonsays
I have been enjoying the posts and am now at home after spending the week with my recently widowed mother-in-law. This has been a stressful time for our family. I so appreciate Danielle providing a place for us to chat and relax a bit.
Debt: I had $30,000 in law school debt when I married my husband. He had no debt at all because his parents were able to pay for his education. We married in 1990 and I was working as a public defender for peanuts ($20,000 in NYC–in 1989) but a few months afterwards I was offered another job in the court system, with a significantly higher salary. Although I did not enjoy the work as much as I did Legal Aid, I felt that since we were recently married and had bought a house I should take the higher-paying job. After a few years we became concerned that “nothing was happening” in the baby department 🙂 and I feared I would never become a mother. But God has a plan. I had my first son in 1994 and by that time, we had paid off the school loan and refinanced our mortgage twice. I was able to go on an extended “maternity leave” which is now going into its fourteenth year. I felt so blessed to be able to have that time with my son. When people ask if I am still practicing law I say yes, I am a lawyer with one client. I have done pro bono work and even a little “consulting” for a non-profit agency but my main job has been mothering. I still keep up with my attorney registration and continuing ed. It is my insurance policy. I don’t know if I will ever go back to fulltime legal work since my little one is just five, but I am so thankful to have a profession I can fall back on. I think everyone should have some trade, skill or profession they can use to take care of themselves and their families if tragedy should strike or even economic circumstances change. Sorry to go on so long but just wanted to add my 2 cents.
AnonAgainsays
Regular Mom, I think you just hit on something that brings the two topics together…HSing and Catholic colleges.
Think about it: isn’t it strange that – usually – the HSing moms go for the Catholic colleges and say that you need the Catholic college for the great liberal arts/Catholic ed? Well, if HSing works to give the foundations of a great Catholic education, wouldn’t you think that it’s possible to continue to “HS” ourselves in the liberal arts and catholic faith in our later teen/adult years?
Funny this conversation is happening now b/c last night on EWTN there was an ad for Christendom, promoting the idea that the real reason for higher education is not vocational, but to be really educated, liberal arts, etc. I can agree with that idea, but there is no reason that you can’t do the great books while you are getting that more practical degree in something that’s going to pay you a lot more. (And my problem with the orthodox Catholic colleges is that some of them are notoriously lax in their academic standards in fields other than theology, etc.)
Also, there are exceptions, e.g. if your passion is philosophy then by all means go to one of the Catholic schools and prepare to get your PhD in phil. and then you can be a professor. OR if you really think Catholic liberal arts and debt is the way to go, with no real idea about practical employability, please do feel free to choose that, but what is never mentioned is you are also choosing a life of financial worry.
Some people handle that better than I do, I guess. But when I see other threads that worry about job security, medical benefits, cars that die, washing machines that must be replaced, I get all itchy. I remember how panicky that life was. Now? All those stresses are gone. An appliance dies? I get a new one. And probably upgrade. Another kid needs braces? No sweat. Credit card debt? Unheard of; paid in full each month. Also, our financial situation helps out other families that didn’t make the same choices we did and can’t manage to pay their bills. We give a lot to our church, to religious orders, worthy charities, etc. So don’t think it’s all about me going to get my teeth bleached or go to a spa for the weekend. Which I also do; my husband loves it when I take care of myself. But hey, we earned it.
This is not for braggings’ sake I do this; I am anonymous after all. I do this to point out how very different my life is now from how it used to be. We have almost no stress in our lives regarding the material things, but that sense of “no anxiety” definitely spills over into other areas of our lives, no question. And I can only point to the right degree/career path that did that. More power to you if those things are easy for you to handle. I couldn’t, so I didn’t.
PMsays
Elaine, I just wanted to say I think your post was great and made alot of good points.
Someone mentioned how if you did a study comparing homeschoolers and public schoolers, the public scholers would be the ones with the pregnancy, abortion, drug use etc.
Well, why not do a study comparing apples to apples, that is students from homes that carry the values we uphold, our faith, morals, family time etc. I’m sure you would find the results would show that public school kids from faithfilled families do just as well as HS kids from faithfilled families.
Just as HS families tire of people telling them that their kids are not getting socialization I tire of hearing the HS’ers stereotype all public school kids.
I have great admiration for homeschoolers. I sometimes wish I could give my kids the education they get at a public school at home. I really can’t match it but I do give credit to families that can.
As for college, I left a small Catholic college my freshman year and found my faith at one of the most liberal universities in the country. God works in many ways.
Jsays
To Elaine and PM:
Thank you for posting your thoughts. I agree! For me, home was my source of strength in a confusing outside world. As much as I loved going to school (and I did, I was a social butterfly), there was nothing better than knowing that my parents and my siblings were there for me when I returned home each afternoon.
So peer pressure can be bad, we all know. But it can be good as well. I put the peddle to the metal in AP History and English because I wanted to prove to my teachers that I wasn’t just another dumb blond. My hard work paid off, I passed my AP exams with the highest marks and I was able to get full college credit for those courses. I learned those years that no matter what color your skin was, or how great of an athlete you were, or how much money your family had, if you worked hard and kept at it, chances are that you would suceed.
Which brings me to another point: good teachers. I had a teacher who changed my life when I was fourteen. She taught Art History and applied arts. I knew then and there that I was going to study in New York (just like her) and work in a gallery (just like her), that there was more to life than the sleepy bedroom community that I was born and raised in. My French teacher inspired me to study abroad (which I did later). I ended up going to school in Manhattan and have a degree in art history. I worked in a gallery on Madison Ave.
There’s so much negative talk about school on this board. Honestly, I never considered my public high school education to be lacking, or the peer pressure to be so overwhelmingly horrible. Yes, teenagers can be stupid and mean, but so be it. Old people can be selfish and crotchety. Should we write them off because they are in a bad stage of their lives? Should we not hang out with our grandparents and parents because they are a little too “set in their ways”? I had my feelings hurt in high school by other girls, but you know what? I got over it. I soldiered on. A little bruised, but wiser in the end. What mattered most to me, and will always, was my family. That was permanent. High school was simply stepping stone to college.
PMsays
Thank you J for your thoughts. I too have seen already teachers have an amazing and wonderful influence on my children. I have seen them flourish in every aspect of their being. Teaching is a vocation I have high regard for.
I also had some great teachers in high school that influenced me. Maybe sometimes people have a limited view of what public school is or maybe they live in an area where the schools are really rough. I can understand that.
However, sometimes the need to validate our own choices can be at the heart of why we choose to tear down any form of schooling that is not our own whether it is public, private, Catholic or homeschooling.
I try to keep that in mind when I hear comments from individuals with negative views of schooling choices.
Alicesays
I have been reading this conversation for most of the week, but I’m always a bit shy about commenting for the first time on a blog.
It looks as if I grew up in a home similar to those of anon111’s relatives. At one point when I was in my teens, my mother decided we could no longer talk with our neighbor (one of the most innocent Catholic girls you’d ever meet) because she went to public school. The homeschooled teenagers at church were all boys, so I was very lonely. I was the teen who would walk by people I knew without saying hello because it was easier to be rude than to try to talk with someone outside my family. I kept my faith, but only through the grace of God.
For college, I went to a very good state university. I graduated with high honors in music with a minor in Latin. The following year, I married another Catholic and we are expecting our first child. For the most part, I am your “poster alumna” for Catholic homeschooling.
My sister did not fare as well as I did. She lost her faith in her early teens. When she was 18, she had only finished 9th grade, despite the fact that she is very bright. She is now a teen mother, working a entry level job and studying for her GED.
My family is not the only family where both faith and education suffered because of homeschooling pride. It breaks my heart to see parents working so hard and yet refusing to open their eyes to the fact that homeschooling is not working for their family. Oddly enough, neither my sister nor I have ruled out homeschooling. I pray that if one or both of us chooses that route, we keep our children’s best interests in mind and don’t let our pride get in the way if it is in their best interest to send them to school.
PMsays
Alice,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I understand what you are saying. I sometimes worry about families that have a very rigid attitude about a schooling choice and regardless of how it is working for them will not look at other options because they are convinced by the people they hang out with or a theology they have embraced that there is only one way. That includes all of us, public, private, homeschooling, we all need to be fleixible and consider other options when we see our kids, family, marriage are not thriving.
We are in public school now but would consider Catholic or homeschooling if we need to. Evaluating our choice is an ongoing process for us. I used to be very fundamentalist and rigid in my thinking myself. I see things differently now and I find that very helpful. I also find that I learn alot from families who homeschool/Catholic school and I enjoy that connection.
Congratulations on expecting your first. Anticipating the arrival of a child is a very exciting time.
Elainesays
I agree, PM. The reason I visit homeschool blogs is because they give me ideas for how I can be a better mother to my children in everything from creating a domestic church to maintaining our values.
I really appreciate homeschoolers’ choice and will continue to consider it for my own family. Until then, my kids will stay in public school and I will continue to attempt to shed light on how this choice, too, can work to the glory of God.
Michelle Reitemeyer: would you email me at familymon@earthlink.net? I have some questions for you about vaccines. When I click on your name, my browser won’t display your webpage, so do you mind emailing me? Thanks! PS — earthlink will send your email to my spam folder, but don’t worry, I check that folder every day.
Hi Anonymom! I graduated from Christendom 5 years ago this May, and I didn’t realize how much the price tag had gone up! I think the whole package when I started in ’99 was just $18,000 or so. When I said that what I got from my education was “priceless” I meant just that: it is an improvement and expansion of the quality of my intellectual and spiritual life that a particular price cannot be assigned to–a human quality that is non-quantifiable. But I certainly realize that living at school, paying professors, etc., etc., had a concrete price tag attached, and must be evaluated in that light.
melissa, I absolutely agree with you! And I really like your concept of “worthy” debt. Yes, an education (like a mortgage) is a worthy cause.
Just two more small points to consider about college education: firstly, I agree that taking 6-8 years for a degree can be worth it to be debt-free, but if one chooses that path, one should be aware that there is sometimes a good deal of cost in one’s social life. That is, friends graduate, get jobs, marry, move away, before you. If you make friends easily, this is probably a minor point. But for an introvert who makes only a few friends over a long period of time, this could make college a lot more difficult. Just another factor to consider. Secondly, I think the idea of working and saving for a year before college is a good option, as well as working for a year afterward while living at home.
Carmen, on College Debt.
I haven’t read any of the other comments, so please forgive me if I’m repeating. I would recommend against student debt, particularly for women. I have had friends who really wanted to stay home with their kids, but student debt prevented them from doing so. I thought that was such a shame. I think it also applies to men, but women seem more directly involved.
My recommendation would be to knock out two years of local college, with careful consideration of what the expensive school will allow to transfer. She can work her buns off, live at home and save up for 2 years at the expensive school. She can even dabble in a bit of short term investing, if she wants. Or even long-term, which could be used to pay off any debt incurred.
Congratulations and good luck!!!
Re: education of our children. The bottom line is that we all have an awesome responsibility to raise our children in the faith. It is a very difficult process no matter what you decide. It takes a lot of prayer to make the decision. If your kids are in a school your effort should be in being constantly vigilant of what your children are learning and doing in school as well as knowing about the friends they spend time with. If you are homeschooling your efforts are in your busy days of teaching, planning and curriculum choosing. This is not a responsibility to take lightly nor should the decision be taken lightly. With prayer you will know what is the right decision for your family each year.
If you step back and look at all of this, it’s really rather amusing.
All of our emotions aside, it seems as if every Tuesday coffee talk ends up as: do what works best for your family!
(coffee cup “clink” to all of you!)
Hey momofsome, “clink” back at ya!
…isn’t that what the basic summary of Danielle’s book? Do what works best for your family!
nice job momofsome!!
To Diane,
I don’t know about others here, but when I have used ‘smileys’ in emails here, they have been because of my typing the characters in. I have never pasted a smiley onto Danielle’s blog.
Do you know how to make smileys with just a combination of maybe 3 typed keys? It’s pretty fun!
Here is a big smile for you, done with a colon, a dash, and a capital letter ‘D’! 😀
Catherine Post,
I stand corrected 🙁 and I apologize. I just cringe every time I get a ton of these in E mails from my In laws and know that within a week Hubby will get a call that their computer, which he built ,is not working again. Hubby grumbles to me and then goes and runs a spy ware sweeper and all is Ok again until they realize that their smiles are gone and download the program again ARGH ! Because of this I try to spread the word. Thank you for letting me know these ones are Ok. I will not admonish anyone about it again 🙂
Hi Everyone,
I went to Ball State in Indiana. They had an excellent Newman Center. Actually they have a program where students can live there. It’s called the Christian Leadership Program and I was in it for two years (junior and senior year.) It’s a great program, we did an internship (mine was in High School youth ministry both years), and had to to a certain number of hours of cleaning, social time, and internship and we got free room and board!
On debt: CLP and having many jobs during college enabled me to graduate debt free! Of course I had $7 in my checking account, but hey – it was so worth it. I had a great college experience and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Now, my husband had some student loans and he went to Law school right after we were married so we have debt from that. That debt (and some other things) kept me from staying home with my daughter for the first year of her life. I had to work full time but luckily I was able to take her with me. We’ve been following Dave Ramsay’s debt reduction plan and in 4 weeks I get to go part time!! I’m so excited to at least be a part time SAHM. Our goal is to get me to stay at home full time. Pray for us!
🙂 😀
beth,
what kind of job did you have that let you take your daughter to work?
i am desperate to find something like that!!
You have to think about smilies now! I went to type ‘I was oldest of 8’ within parenthesis and saw a smilie in sunglasses pop up where the 8 and parenthesis were!
8)
On college debt: please tell your daughter not to overdo it.
My husband and I came from lower middle class families and knew that the opportunity to attend university would be on our own tabs. We both decided to enlist in the US Navy (without any regrets) to aquire employable technical skills and college money. I refused to allow my blue collar parents to dip into their retirements for me like so many of my friends did. As veterans, our classes (state school is covered by the GI Bill and the Hazelwood Act) are covered and the military afforded me the ability to see much of the European Theater:)
Right out of the gates my husband and I started having kids (and they haven’t stopped arriving 😉 I’m so glad we have $0 debt-except that pesky mortgage. My husband is a cop and still hasn’t completed his degree but gets paid just as much as his friends with Bachelors and Masters degrees with outsatnding loans. Sometimes the prestige of a degree doesn’t pan out depending on your career field. I have not completed my degree either, but I stay at home with our five kiddos-there’ll be time for that later.
I guess my point is that there are so many paths to take toward careers and education-they needen’t be pricey or traditional, and some offer unique opportunities.
Too late for tuesday but if anybody is still reading these, but my 2 girls, 4 and12, dance at a christian but not catholic dance studio and the older one is getting to really advance stuff and loves it. At the studio, they have a prayr at the begining and the end of class and sometimes have one of the students say the prayr. my daughter is worried a teacher will call on her to say it and she doesn’t know how to say a protestant prayr. what should she do?should she say a hail mary? would that cause problems?
please help. : )
Which is better, Tea or Coffee?
Dance Studio: How about a simple “Our Father?” Everyone knows it everyone says it — she doesn’t have to worry about offending people, but it’s a good catholic prayer! =)
One last thought on college:
I think big state schools may be fine for extroverts. They attract a HUGE range of students, and if you work, you can find a group you fit in with.
BUT for an introvert who’s not great at making friends, a smalelr private school might be better. SInce these schools have very unique “personalities”, it makes it easier to find a good group of friends since the student bodies are somewhat self-selecting….
also, Interest Rate matters a lot on student loans. My husband and I consolidated ours when he finished grad school. Interest rates were low, and we got bonuses for electronic payment, on-time payment, etc.
Our rate (we consolidated about 4 1/2 years ago) is now something like 1.9% — practically free money. When parents have offered to pay them off for us, we’ve told them to invest the money instead and give it to us later— after all, they’ll get at LEAST 3% on their investment…..
I am troubled by a lot of the comments that seem to suggest that only “practical” education is necessary for a SAHM. The Catholic Church has an INCREDIBLE tradition of female intellectuals, and we also have a tradition of education as a means to perfect the intellect (to better understand Christ and his Church) rather than as simply a means to acquire professional skills. Education as a means to an end is really a very recent (and Calvinisty!) thing……
A good liberal arts education means that papal encyclicals are easy to read. It means you’ve learned how to argue forcefully yet cordially and can act as a better apologist. It means you always have something interesting to think about as you do neverending chores while surrounded by preverbal children. (Who can be bored when you’ve got Plato to think about?!)
It means you can understand the thinkers who influenced some of our greatest saints!
If your child is inclined in this direction, let her follow her dreams…. the church DOES need intellectuals… and especial orthodox woman intellectuals so we can take back “women’s spirituality” from the crazy godess-worshipper types!
Student loans are doable. We have a smaller house than we would otherwise, and only one car, but the joy of meeting Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Jerome, Thomas More, etc. in my Western Civ. Classes is so much greater than a little bit of extra cmfort would be!
(One downside of a liberal arts education– it inspires Booklust and you will never, ever be able to find a house that easily fits your library……)
8)
But once again, it depends on your kids… some enter college knowing exactly what they want to be and what they want to do. But if they love school and learning for their own sakes, liberal arts is the way to go.
OK… sorry for the babble…. but baby boy was nursing and I was glued to my chair anyway. Now, back to the laundry…..
SAHMMIE,
Sorry if someone already responded to your comment, but I just had to throw in my 2 cents. My husband and I both graduated from TAC and had a total debt of around 50-60k. He went on to school while I worked. When he graduated with his MBA, I stayed home and we had our 5 kids. ( there’s a bit of overlap there, but we managed just fine…)
I would never trade that education for less debt. Not only did I meet my husband there, but I gained a moral and educational foundation that is hard to rival. In my opinion, that experience has no price tag. It is in college where most people find their “friends for life” and while they are there they definitively decide the path that their life will take. I’m sure most of our children would survive state schools… but I’d rather have my kids be enriched by their college experience. Ideally, that they emerge as stronger Catholics, bolstered by their intellectual formation and ability to reason and argue, and also see that they are not alone in this pursuit.
Again, to each his own… but I wanted to assure you that you need not “feel sorry” for those of us who have a Liberal Arts degree from one of those schools. I am very grateful and feel extremely blessed.
🙂
Thanks, Megan & Deirdre for your posts. I truly enjoyed reading them. I wonder if you have heard of or read any works by Mary Reed Newland? Sophia Press has been re-releasing them lately. I have only read a few of the originals and I just love her style. Now, here is a woman who would probably avoid “unnecessary/unworthy” debt, but had a lot of kids (7?) and had SUCH a love for the Church and a way of making it clear that she valued education in women without being showy or empty.
My favorite so far:
We and Our Children
The Year and Our Children
The Family and the Bible
(she has a good one on saints whose title escapes me)
I love that she has such concrete and creative ideas for really imbuing our children with the faith. For me, it has been so helpful because I have the desire to raise good Catholics, but don’t always feel up to the task.
Thank you, Melissa, for your post. I too really enjoyed Megan and Deirdre’s thoughtful posts on the lifelong benefits of Catholic liberal arts education. And I love that you mentioned Mary Reed Newland. She’s inspired me as well. My mother’s dear friend (in fact, my brother’s godmother) was Newland’s sister, and so my mother knew her and recently gave me all the Newland books she had. Newland’s own mother was a doctor. I think she’s a shining example of the influence that a well-educated Catholic woman can have on her family, her Church, her culture, and her world. As Deirdre pointed out, there’s an incredible tradition!
“At home, my kids have learned to assume that people will be interested in talking about ideas. They assume that they will be treated with respect (more or less), and they assume that they ought to be polite and kind. They assume that they will have to be patient with people who aren’t their own age, and that it’s possible to carry on a conversation with someone who’s not your own age.”
Bingo. Mine, too. They go to public school by the way, but my husband and I are very seriously about our God-given responsibility for our children’s hearts, minds and souls.
This is what concerns me about the homeschool-public school debate. It’s as if ONLY homeschoolers will take the time and energy to actually engage their children. Not true. Parents can and should do that, wherever they choose to have their children taught math or science.
For a long time now, I’ve considered homeschooling. For a long time now, I’ve rejected it for reasons that have to do with my conscience and my family. But I haven’t rejected my responsibilities as a mother, I haven’t rejected my children or handed them over to “the state.”
If only homeschoolers and public schoolers would stop generalizing about each other!
I read with interest the eloquent post by the the homeschooled teen. It could have been written by my own teenager. We are not the great unwashed!
Here’s what I know: If you love God and your children, if you are engaged in the work of parenting, if you see yourself as responsible for educating your child no matter where they go to school, if your house is filled with the love of God, with books, music and wonderful conversation, you are probably doing well by your kids.
Whether you homeschool or public school or unschool or private school is secondary to HOW YOU PARENT!
PS: A close family member “homeschools,” which to her means enrolling her children in music, sports, weekly homeschool “schools” and so many other activities that they are home maybe one or two days a week.
Yet she has told me that her children will attend public school “over her dead body.” She clearly feels that our top-ranked schools are worthless. I disagree.
My high-school son, for example, isn’t on drugs, engaging in sex or antagonistic to other family members. In fact, he is writing a novel in his spare time, taking honors classes, happy to attend church and in every way a wonderful boy.
Even if you have chosen differently for your children, please allow for the possibility that public school parents, too, are raising Godly, well-rounded and creative children.
S:
“All the Newland books she had…”??? Wow! What a gift! From your previous posts, I feel happy for you and your kids that they won’t sit idle, collecting dust! (the books, OR your kids.)
I’m not sure where some of you have read above that a Catholic woman should remain uneducated and avoid accruing college debt since she might later become a SAHM. It seems to me that everyone who has posted agrees that advanced schooling is important. WHat we don’t agree on is to whether anyone (read men & women) should acquire great debt in pursuit of that education.
And, while I’m at it ;-), I’d like to mention that it is possible to understand and appreciate/understand literature, philosophy, science and the arts without attending a small private Catholic college at $25k a year. Some of this attitude comes off to me as a form of “elitist Catholic royalty”. To be in the club you have to have had over 4 kids, home schooled and send your kids to the “right” Catholic colleges. Give me a break!
Elaine: Loved your post!
If somebody would have sat me down and said, “Look, you’re not wealthy and neither is your family. Study literature if you like, perhaps as a minor, but major in business or communications so there’s some chance somebody will hire you to be something more than a glorified secretary when you get out of here,” that person would have done me an invaluable service.
–This happened to the kids ( and son in law) of a good friend of mine. There is no disputing they enjoyed their time at the Catholic College, but unfortunately, once they were done, they had to go on to a regular university and almost completely *start over* to get into a field that would produce a sustainable income.
I have been enjoying the posts and am now at home after spending the week with my recently widowed mother-in-law. This has been a stressful time for our family. I so appreciate Danielle providing a place for us to chat and relax a bit.
Debt: I had $30,000 in law school debt when I married my husband. He had no debt at all because his parents were able to pay for his education. We married in 1990 and I was working as a public defender for peanuts ($20,000 in NYC–in 1989) but a few months afterwards I was offered another job in the court system, with a significantly higher salary. Although I did not enjoy the work as much as I did Legal Aid, I felt that since we were recently married and had bought a house I should take the higher-paying job. After a few years we became concerned that “nothing was happening” in the baby department 🙂 and I feared I would never become a mother. But God has a plan. I had my first son in 1994 and by that time, we had paid off the school loan and refinanced our mortgage twice. I was able to go on an extended “maternity leave” which is now going into its fourteenth year. I felt so blessed to be able to have that time with my son. When people ask if I am still practicing law I say yes, I am a lawyer with one client. I have done pro bono work and even a little “consulting” for a non-profit agency but my main job has been mothering. I still keep up with my attorney registration and continuing ed. It is my insurance policy. I don’t know if I will ever go back to fulltime legal work since my little one is just five, but I am so thankful to have a profession I can fall back on. I think everyone should have some trade, skill or profession they can use to take care of themselves and their families if tragedy should strike or even economic circumstances change. Sorry to go on so long but just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Regular Mom, I think you just hit on something that brings the two topics together…HSing and Catholic colleges.
Think about it: isn’t it strange that – usually – the HSing moms go for the Catholic colleges and say that you need the Catholic college for the great liberal arts/Catholic ed? Well, if HSing works to give the foundations of a great Catholic education, wouldn’t you think that it’s possible to continue to “HS” ourselves in the liberal arts and catholic faith in our later teen/adult years?
Funny this conversation is happening now b/c last night on EWTN there was an ad for Christendom, promoting the idea that the real reason for higher education is not vocational, but to be really educated, liberal arts, etc. I can agree with that idea, but there is no reason that you can’t do the great books while you are getting that more practical degree in something that’s going to pay you a lot more. (And my problem with the orthodox Catholic colleges is that some of them are notoriously lax in their academic standards in fields other than theology, etc.)
Also, there are exceptions, e.g. if your passion is philosophy then by all means go to one of the Catholic schools and prepare to get your PhD in phil. and then you can be a professor. OR if you really think Catholic liberal arts and debt is the way to go, with no real idea about practical employability, please do feel free to choose that, but what is never mentioned is you are also choosing a life of financial worry.
Some people handle that better than I do, I guess. But when I see other threads that worry about job security, medical benefits, cars that die, washing machines that must be replaced, I get all itchy. I remember how panicky that life was. Now? All those stresses are gone. An appliance dies? I get a new one. And probably upgrade. Another kid needs braces? No sweat. Credit card debt? Unheard of; paid in full each month. Also, our financial situation helps out other families that didn’t make the same choices we did and can’t manage to pay their bills. We give a lot to our church, to religious orders, worthy charities, etc. So don’t think it’s all about me going to get my teeth bleached or go to a spa for the weekend. Which I also do; my husband loves it when I take care of myself. But hey, we earned it.
This is not for braggings’ sake I do this; I am anonymous after all. I do this to point out how very different my life is now from how it used to be. We have almost no stress in our lives regarding the material things, but that sense of “no anxiety” definitely spills over into other areas of our lives, no question. And I can only point to the right degree/career path that did that. More power to you if those things are easy for you to handle. I couldn’t, so I didn’t.
Elaine, I just wanted to say I think your post was great and made alot of good points.
Someone mentioned how if you did a study comparing homeschoolers and public schoolers, the public scholers would be the ones with the pregnancy, abortion, drug use etc.
Well, why not do a study comparing apples to apples, that is students from homes that carry the values we uphold, our faith, morals, family time etc. I’m sure you would find the results would show that public school kids from faithfilled families do just as well as HS kids from faithfilled families.
Just as HS families tire of people telling them that their kids are not getting socialization I tire of hearing the HS’ers stereotype all public school kids.
I have great admiration for homeschoolers. I sometimes wish I could give my kids the education they get at a public school at home. I really can’t match it but I do give credit to families that can.
As for college, I left a small Catholic college my freshman year and found my faith at one of the most liberal universities in the country. God works in many ways.
To Elaine and PM:
Thank you for posting your thoughts. I agree! For me, home was my source of strength in a confusing outside world. As much as I loved going to school (and I did, I was a social butterfly), there was nothing better than knowing that my parents and my siblings were there for me when I returned home each afternoon.
So peer pressure can be bad, we all know. But it can be good as well. I put the peddle to the metal in AP History and English because I wanted to prove to my teachers that I wasn’t just another dumb blond. My hard work paid off, I passed my AP exams with the highest marks and I was able to get full college credit for those courses. I learned those years that no matter what color your skin was, or how great of an athlete you were, or how much money your family had, if you worked hard and kept at it, chances are that you would suceed.
Which brings me to another point: good teachers. I had a teacher who changed my life when I was fourteen. She taught Art History and applied arts. I knew then and there that I was going to study in New York (just like her) and work in a gallery (just like her), that there was more to life than the sleepy bedroom community that I was born and raised in. My French teacher inspired me to study abroad (which I did later). I ended up going to school in Manhattan and have a degree in art history. I worked in a gallery on Madison Ave.
There’s so much negative talk about school on this board. Honestly, I never considered my public high school education to be lacking, or the peer pressure to be so overwhelmingly horrible. Yes, teenagers can be stupid and mean, but so be it. Old people can be selfish and crotchety. Should we write them off because they are in a bad stage of their lives? Should we not hang out with our grandparents and parents because they are a little too “set in their ways”? I had my feelings hurt in high school by other girls, but you know what? I got over it. I soldiered on. A little bruised, but wiser in the end. What mattered most to me, and will always, was my family. That was permanent. High school was simply stepping stone to college.
Thank you J for your thoughts. I too have seen already teachers have an amazing and wonderful influence on my children. I have seen them flourish in every aspect of their being. Teaching is a vocation I have high regard for.
I also had some great teachers in high school that influenced me. Maybe sometimes people have a limited view of what public school is or maybe they live in an area where the schools are really rough. I can understand that.
However, sometimes the need to validate our own choices can be at the heart of why we choose to tear down any form of schooling that is not our own whether it is public, private, Catholic or homeschooling.
I try to keep that in mind when I hear comments from individuals with negative views of schooling choices.
I have been reading this conversation for most of the week, but I’m always a bit shy about commenting for the first time on a blog.
It looks as if I grew up in a home similar to those of anon111’s relatives. At one point when I was in my teens, my mother decided we could no longer talk with our neighbor (one of the most innocent Catholic girls you’d ever meet) because she went to public school. The homeschooled teenagers at church were all boys, so I was very lonely. I was the teen who would walk by people I knew without saying hello because it was easier to be rude than to try to talk with someone outside my family. I kept my faith, but only through the grace of God.
For college, I went to a very good state university. I graduated with high honors in music with a minor in Latin. The following year, I married another Catholic and we are expecting our first child. For the most part, I am your “poster alumna” for Catholic homeschooling.
My sister did not fare as well as I did. She lost her faith in her early teens. When she was 18, she had only finished 9th grade, despite the fact that she is very bright. She is now a teen mother, working a entry level job and studying for her GED.
My family is not the only family where both faith and education suffered because of homeschooling pride. It breaks my heart to see parents working so hard and yet refusing to open their eyes to the fact that homeschooling is not working for their family. Oddly enough, neither my sister nor I have ruled out homeschooling. I pray that if one or both of us chooses that route, we keep our children’s best interests in mind and don’t let our pride get in the way if it is in their best interest to send them to school.
Alice,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I understand what you are saying. I sometimes worry about families that have a very rigid attitude about a schooling choice and regardless of how it is working for them will not look at other options because they are convinced by the people they hang out with or a theology they have embraced that there is only one way. That includes all of us, public, private, homeschooling, we all need to be fleixible and consider other options when we see our kids, family, marriage are not thriving.
We are in public school now but would consider Catholic or homeschooling if we need to. Evaluating our choice is an ongoing process for us. I used to be very fundamentalist and rigid in my thinking myself. I see things differently now and I find that very helpful. I also find that I learn alot from families who homeschool/Catholic school and I enjoy that connection.
Congratulations on expecting your first. Anticipating the arrival of a child is a very exciting time.
I agree, PM. The reason I visit homeschool blogs is because they give me ideas for how I can be a better mother to my children in everything from creating a domestic church to maintaining our values.
I really appreciate homeschoolers’ choice and will continue to consider it for my own family. Until then, my kids will stay in public school and I will continue to attempt to shed light on how this choice, too, can work to the glory of God.