Apr 22 2008
Coffee Talk Tuesday
Happy Tuesday! It’s time for Coffee Talk. What’s on your minds this week?
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Navel Gazing since 2004
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A mother is the most important person on earth. She cannot claim the honor of having built Notre Dame Cathedral. She need not. She has built something more magnificent than any Cathedral -- a dwelling for an immortal soul, the tiny perfection of her baby's body. -- Joseph Cardinal Mindszenty
We are not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be. -- C.S. Lewis
Some mothers are kissing mothers and some are scolding mothers, but it is love just the same, and most mothers kiss and scold together. -- Pearl S. Buck
Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence, and I learn, whatever state I may be in, therein to be content. -- Helen Keller
Little things are indeed little, but to be faithful in little things is a great thing. -- Bl. Mother Teresa
The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried. -- G.K. Chesterton
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Good Morning! Wow! Twice in a row I am the first to post! I must be the Earliest bird up LOL!
A question for everyone. What was your favorite part of the Pope’s visit?
For me it had to be the blessing he gave the children with disabilities, and the Youth Rally at Dunwoodie. The mass at Yankee Stadium was also awesome, as well as the Mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral. I Love Pope Benedict!
One of my favorite parts was when he was at the White House and the military choir sang the Battle Hymn of the Republic!
Anyway, I have a question about toy storage. Right now we have a play room with all the toys in it. I am not sure I like that arrangment anymore since they always seem so secluded from us when they are playing. I am thinking of moving to an arrangement where certain toys are in different parts of the house, like the family room and kitchen. Maybe some in bedrooms though we haven’t done this yet. My kids are 6, 4, 2. Any ideas or suggestions.
Thanks!
Joan…you ARE up early! My excuse is that I live in London, so it is noon already!
For toy storage:
We have tried both a play room and bedrooms, never all over the house….that would make clean up crazy.
When we had the play room for all the toys I found that they would get dumped and the room would get so messy they wouldn’t play with any of it and it was harder to clean up….now they have their own toys in there own room (upstairs) but they still play together in each room and share toys (my boys are 10, 8 and 6.) For the most part toys stay in the room they belong in….if they want to “show” me their creation I go to them. Their train set is the only thing in the playroom besides there own small tv (only for dvd’s – not tv) a futon and my computer (password protected). Each night before bath/bed everyone cleans up the toys they have played with. I know my boys are older but this worked even when they were little in a different house. I am an organized, tidy person by nature and this system works for us.
Good morning!
Help. Our oldest daughter is graduating from high school and needs to decide on college. Here’s the tricky part. She has been accepted to a pretty selective school and wants to go there. But it will be very expensive even with a nice grant they have offered. My husband and I have given her a number that we can help out and then the rest of the debt will be hers.
She could also go to our state school which has an excellant program in the field she wants to study. It makes me sick to think of her getting out of college with 40-50,000 debt. She is a top notch student and really want to learn all she can. Is the more expensive dream school worth it??
Carmen
I just quickly have to comment……..last week I said I was very unexcited about the Pope’s visit. Since I am from the Boston area I had seen first hand the damage done by a Cardinal, some Bishops and some priests and had gotten very cynical. I never walked away frommy faith, and couldn’t, it is too important in my life, but could indeed lose faith in the so called “leaders”. However, I will be the first to admit that the Pope did indeed impress me. I thought his words, wherever spoken, were filled with warmth, honesty, wisdom and compassion. We saw another side to this man that has not been exposed to the world. His humaness glowed through. Thank you God! My prayer and hope is that all the Bishops listened carefully to his words.
As to toy control……even now, with my children grown and in their own homes, I have lots toys for my grandchildren and all are kept in their special places as they were when my children were young! Love big toyboxes and the storage units/baskets that are around today.
I have a friend who is pregnant for the first time
I wanted to get her a really good reference book on raising kids – something like what to expect at each stage and the milestones of development that she can refer to as and when she needs it. I know you all have vast experience, but is there any book that you have that you have found really useful, not just for the baby bit, but maybe into early childhood, too, up to five years or beyond? Suggestions much appreciated! Many thanks in advance.
My favorite part was the departure ceremony when Dick Cheney mentioned the millions of souls the Pope shepherds and how he probably didn’t envision this at his ordination. He sort of rolled his eyes as if to say he never imagined this huge responsibility. It was so human and so humble.
College debt – my own opinion – employers don’t care where you got your degree. Debt is a huge burden. My husband wasn’t thrilled with his college experience, has not worked in his field of study, and really grew to resent that student loan debt that we were paying off for years. And that has left his parents in a poor financial situation as well. He, personally, would have been better off in a good state school program with a good Newman Club instead of the small, private, “Catholic” school he went to.
school debt: Avoid it, if at all possible. At least for the first two years of undergraduate and, in my humble opinion, is only worth it if it is for a good Catholic college!
Book for new mom: I have always liked all the Dr. Sears books!
Toys: thanks for the suggestions. I am still planning in my head. The play room thing has worked the same for us…becomes a “casserole” of toys!
Toys- I keep a large majority of them in plasic totes in the basement. I rotate them and it never ceases to amaze me how wonderfully everyone plays when we pull out “new toys”. This makes clean up so much easier as there aren’t that many toys all over. Toys are only in the family room and laundry room. I love it when the kids want to play in the laundry room and remind me to do laundry!
Thanks for the comments on college debt I totally agree and hope my daughter will also. At 18 I don’t know if she really gets it.
Our daughter is just finishing her freshman year at a great Catholic university. We struggled a lot with her going there last year since it was much more expensive than the state university. A year later I’m so happy that she insisted on the Catholic school. She will have some debt when she graduates but not as much as your daughter might and we were also able to help out more than we thought. I don’t know if the other college you’re considering is Catholic or not. I would discuss it with your daughter as in we can cover this much and make sure she knows how the debt works out to monthly payments for so many years but support her decision if she really prefers one school over another.
One thing I forgot to say about college debt is that I have talked to so many women who, like myself, regret their college debt after they got married and had to watch their husbands work so hard (sometimes extra jobs) to pay it off while they stayed home with children. It sort of puts it all in perspective. If you think you are called to marriage, think about your future spouse. Even if you are called to religious life, most religious orders cannot afford to pay off school debt and you will have to wait, or find donors.
I second the Dr Sears suggestion. The most basic of their books in The Baby Book. It covers to about age 5.
College Debt: I graduated 4th in a class of 600, got into a very prestigious college of my choice, and wasn’t able to go because of money. I could have taken on loads of debt, but that didn’t make sense to me, so I went to community college for a year, then finished up at the local state university. It’s hard to gain perspective when you are 18 and in the midst of being recruited by colleges. You think this decision will direct the future course of your life, and if you fail to make the right decision, your life will be over. (Dramatic, but aren’t most high school girls?) If I were to do it over, I would do 2 full years at community college–you get much more attention, smaller classes, etc. than taking these first 2 years at a large University where most 100-200 level classes are in large lecture halls. Unless you have ambitions to do something like enter politics on the national level, it doesn’t really matter where you get your degree when it comes to the real world. And I never used my specific degree, working in an entirely different field altogether until I got married and had children and became a stay-at-home mom. Wherever she goes, she will get out what she puts in, and it hardly seems worth it to saddle her with such debt. My dear friend has 100,000 of debt from vet school, and she’s never worked a day as a vet because her son was born a week after she graduated and she decided she needed to be a stay-at-home homeschooling mom. She wishes she’d realized that before she spent the time and money on schooling she was never going to use. Your daughter may not think it fair that she can’t go to the school of her dreams because of finances, but she can have a great experience wherever she goes.
Question: Do you moms of many children have a spiritual routine that you try to work into your day–prayer at certain times or in certain ways, spiritual reading, etc? I’m really struggling with keeping my spiritual life together now that I have a little person whose demands I need to meet 24/7 (plus I continue to work fulltime from home). Any suggestions?
Also, what about exercise? Any tricks that keep you active or set aside the necessary time?
Regarding college loans: I think it depends a lot on the field your daughter is going into and the prospect of her getting a job that will allow her to pay off her loans quickly. I, too, went to the private college that required me to take out about $18,000 in additional loans. I wouldn’t trade having gone to that school, but it was a real burden to graduate with loans because I didn’t get a very high paying job those first few years, and I also had met my now husband while in college and so didn’t have much time to become financially “sound” before getting married. In the end, I was blessed because a gift from my grandmother enabled me to pay off the last third or so just before getting married, but otherwise they would have been a pretty big burden that first year of marriage added to car loans, rent, and other living expenses that I had once I was on my own.
While I wish I didn’t have college debt, I wouldn’t trade my college experience for anything. The fact that I am home with our kids does not make the debt suddenly not worth it, as if I should have stayed close to home and chosen any old school because it was cheaper. Or should I not have bothered to go at all since I’m at home? Obviously, if one chooses a college merely for the name, that is different. Still, I’m not sure what kind of message it sends to say that a girl should make sure not to accumulate college debt out of courtesy to her eventual husband- kind of sounds like: “Going to college is less important than being a financial burden on your husband later because of it.” Never mind that you don’t even have a husband, yet. Or may not have a husband for ten years after you graduate… I also hope that my husband chose me for reasons other than my debt-to-value ratio.
Carmen, I would highly suggest that your daughter read “Total Money Makeover” by Dave Ramsey and if possible listen to his radio show (she can download it from Itunes). He regularly speaks with people who have thousands of dollars in student debt, often over 40k and 99% of them have lived to regret it. Proverbs says the debtor is a slave and it is true. Beginning one’s adult life with an albatross of debt around one’s neck is foolish. If your daughter leaves school with 45k in debt, it is probably fair to assume that her future husband will also have 40-60k in student loan debt. Can you imagine the burden of starting your family with a 100k in debt? I regularly read a column/blog in the Wall Street Journal called “The Juggle” and folks, especially women lament that because their student loan monthly payment in thousands (yes! thousands of dollars!) they cannot stay home or even go part time. I would urge her to do everything possible to avoid student loan debt or at least minimize it. Seriously, please have her listen to the Dave Ramsey Show – people call in from all over the country regarding their financial wows and the vast majority are truly burdened by student loans.
I just wanted to offer a different perspective on the college issue –
I live in England, so admittedly my debts are nowhere near the level that they could have been in the US, but I did go to college on loans, and I chose the most expensive uni – Cambridge. I could have gone somewhere cheaper and I wouldn’t still be paying it off. I don’t really work in the area of my degree and I probably could have got my current job with a History degree from any university. Plus, now I am four months pregnant, so I hope I won’t need a career for much longer
However, I would not have changed my educational career for the world. A college education is not purely about getting a decent job that will pay off your debts. I learnt from some of the best academics in the world while I was at Cambridge. I had the opportunity to expand my interests in a host of subjects and I learned totally new ways of learning that I would never have been exposed to in a more basic and curriculum-centred college. Plus I met my husband! You can’t put a price on any of those things.
So I say, consider this issue carefully. Weigh up the real differences between the colleges. And whatever decision you make, enjoy it once you’re there.
Joan –
My favorite televised part of the Holy Father’s visit was the Mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral. It was liturgically centered rather than (ugh) centered around the people.
Was anyone else bothered that the music for the D.C. Mass seemed to be much more about celebrating the people rather than the Mass? It came across as a cacophony of noise at times, instead of showing how unique elements come together as the people of God. At least that is how I felt. I understood the theory behind it, just didn’t like the application.
Unfortunately, I missed the NYC Mass and forgot to set the VCR. Peace. ~~~mary
P.S. Favorite non-televised moment was when my son and his friend, with any and all bits of artifice developed in their 12 years totally dissolved the Pope’s appearance, burst forth from the crowd at Catholic University excitedly trying to put into words what it was like to see the Pope. They were over-the-moon ecstatic in that moment. Thank you Lucy!!!!!!!
Oops –
Meant to say:
dissolved BY* the Pope’s appearance
Regarding college–Don’t go into debt. You can still get a good education and be very “employable” by going to a more affordable state college/university. The more expensive schools are not worth their price tag. Also, I think it is important for the college student to work while going to school. It may take a little longer to finish his/her degree, but the work experience (whether at fast food, construction in the summers, clerical, co-oping, etc.) will be an important part of his/her education. It will tell future employers that this person is not only a good student, but a hard worker and a go-getter. It will also make the student more concerned about doing well, if they are having to work and pay at least a portion of their educational and living expenses. And they will be more grateful AND proud of their accomplishments in the future.
On books to give a soon-to-be mom, I would suggest anything by James Stenson. Although his books do not take you through the various stages of development, they are invaluable in the guidance they give to parents. Highly recommended reading.
Re: Daily prayer:
We start our school day with a few prayers and a short reading from Lives of the Saints. Takes about 5 minutes. In other years we’ve done the rosary, which works well with a good tape. Actually, there are great tapes and cd’s with prayers & good spiritual talks that are super for busy moms and can be listened to in the car, or while nursing, or at lunch. Liturgy of the Hours/Christian Prayer takes some working into but is good for older children or private prayer time. I find with many children that short prayers interspersed during the day works best. Songs, too! I’ve also found nighttime nursing to be a great time to be with God.
I would like to know how those of you who stay at home keep good relationships/friendships with friends and family women who work outside the home, and how you working moms handle your friendships with the SAHM’s. I’ve sometimes found these relationships to be a little prickly, with the potential for bad feelings on both sides!
Baby book…I too am a big fan of Dr. Sears…”The Baby Book” would be a great one to get your friend.
Also…I agree with most here about college debt. I had $21,000 of debt that my husband paid off because I stayed home…talk about feeling guilty. I have 4 daughters and I will advise them when the time comes to try not to have any debt or at least not too much that it prevents them from staying home with their children.
I am letting my daughter go into debt because the state schoool that would have been almost a free ride is fine on weekdays but a party school the rest of the time. I want her to come out alive. My son is at a state school and the stories are scaring me tremendously. Even if your child is sober they are surrounded by those who aren’t. I can’t help her so it had to be her decision but we prayed hard to our personal saint, Fr. Aime Deschamps to get her in the Catholic school and help her love it and he did. I’ll trust him.
College debt – can she attend a tech school for a couple of years and transfer in the general credits to the expensive school? I was blessed to get lots of scholarships and help from my parents and did not have debt. I did not meet my husband until my mid-20s so I worked for several years before staying home with my little one.
Child book – I love “The First Three Years of Life” by Dr. Burton White. Not everything is gospel but it’s a good overview.
I have a 14-yr. old son (our oldest) who will be starting high school in the fall. He has been homeschooled since 3rd grade. There are not a lot of Catholic homeschooled boys his age where we live and most of his homeschooled friends are starting high school in the fall. We have one diocesan high school that he is VERY interested in attending,but it is too much for us financially and does not seem to be all that different from our local public school (which my husband and I do not see as an option). He has 4 younger sisters and 2 little brothers, so it is a difficult situation for him. I know that he gets lonely, but I still feel that homeschooling is the best choice for him. I know that it must be hard for him to be home with mom and his little brothers and sisters everyday! When we discuss it, he says that he just wants to see friends everyday, which I can’t provide for him. Is there anyone out there who has had a similar situation? How do you meet the needs of a homeschooled high school boy, who really wants friends? How do you convince him that you have his best interest at heart?
I have a question. I am 21 weeks pregnant. At my 19 1/2 week ultrasound they measured low levels of amniotic fluid. I have a follow-up u/s scheduled with a radiologist in a week and a half. I have read some information on this online (which wasn’t very reassuring, worst case scenarios and all that…). It could be as simple as the fact that the second u/s reveals the first was inaccurate. My doctor told me to rest and keep my feet up (as much as possible with two very active boys!) and I am drinking lots of water.
Has this happened to anyone else? I know this is more common in the third trimester and I am only in my second. I guess I am asking for advice and prayers please! Thank you.
To Kim: I’m sure this isn’t the answer you’re looking for, and I’m not a mom, but I was homeschooled, along with my 3 sibs, from K-8. My parents could not afford private schooling, either, but I really wanted to go to high school, for some of the same reasons as your son. Of course you have your son’s best interests at heart, but I would encourage you to let him go to school. Let him know it’s a one-year trial, and see how it goes. My parents let me and my sister, the two oldest, go to school when we asked–I started grade 9 and she grade 7. I am so thankful that they did. It was a wonderful experience. I am greatful for the homeschooling foundation I had, but I think age 14 is a perfect time to start testing your wings while still at home. Plus, my sister decided after two years that she should come back home–maybe your son will, also. But I would strongly encourage you to let him try it.
Good Morning All~
RE: prayer: My kids are 6, 3, and 1 and we are a homeschooling family. What works for us right now (since they are all small and we don’t get to sit down for long periods of time) is praying a decade of the rosary before school, after school, after lunch, after nap, and finally before bedtime prayers. It’s not requiring too much from the kids yet, but is a good introduction for our routine.
I just have a comment about a movie my husband and I saw this weekend. It wasn’t advertised much at all, so I wanted to get the word out. It’s called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. It’s a documentary film (think Michael Moore BUT positive) by Ben Stein. He looks at the “debate” between evolution and intelligent design at college campuses. It shows that the “debate” really boils down to whether their is a God or not (for the ones who support evolution only). I highly recommend the movie (especially for you and your daughter Carmen-it may be something you would want to look into in choosing a college). I think it’s great to be able to support movies such as this one.
God’s Peace Be With All Today
Oops, that should be “grateful.” Ugh.
Kim, You’re obviously set on home schooling your son and I assume you have looked for Catholic home schooling groups, home schooling co-ops, junior colleges that have classes for home schoolers and unpaid internships for teens etc. Have you also considered sending him part time to the public high school? I have a friend who home schools her son in the morning and then sends him to the junior high in the afternoon for science and gym class. He then stays after school to participate in sports. It’s been a win/win for them. Just a thought.
I’m not sure if this qualifies as coffee talk or not, but I’m looking for suggestions. I am about to go on a 4 day weekend with my 3 kids. My husband is not coming with us.
Its a weekend garage sale kind of thing and requires me to drive 5 hours to get to my mom’s house. It is always a blast, however, I have never done it will 3 kids. I’ll be sharing duties of the garage sale with my sister who also has 3 kids. Hers are 11,9 & 4 and mine are 5,4 & 2.
Any suggestions on how to make this trip easier would be appreciated. They are very familiar with the lengthy trip, since its one we do as a family often. I’m just nervous about stopping for things like bathroom breaks and food with 3 active kids. I’m fairly certain the 5 & 4 yr olds will be ok, but my 2 yr old is at that age where running away from me is the height of amusement.
Help?
On colleges:
Debt is a big problem for many people when they graduate. It’s a shock to realize how large the payments can be each month. With enough ambition and dedication, it can be a good idea to attend a local university or community college for a couple of years and then transfer to the dream school. It’s almost like half-price! The tricky part is keeping up. Statistically, starting at a community college drastically cuts the percentage of kids who actually graduate with a degree. It may be cheaper to go there, but it’s worth a lot less if you don’t get the Bachelor’s at the end.
I think the most important consideration is to choose a college that suits the emotional and spiritual needs of the young person in question. I cried myself to sleep for a month thinking I’d have to attend the large state university before my financial aid package arrived and my family realized it was possible for me to attend the smaller college. I haven’t used the degree in my field specifically, but I know the individualized attention and higher level of academics stretched my intellect in ways I might not have gotten at less elite schools. I plan on homeschooling my children and truly believe my college education in liberal arts was a perfect preparation for that vocation (one I never imagined at the time).
In terms of working, I had part-time jobs at copy shops and labs while I was taking classes, but I think the best use of time is studying and experiencing the opportunities of college life (academic events, community volunteering, all those things you don’t have time to do once you have a family and a job — not just partying). Summers and off terms are the best time to get real job experiences and I’d recommend seeking out internships at companies or non-profits rather than just waitressing or working at a fast food restaurant. Those can be useful jobs, but if you want experiences that will get you ahead in the job marketplace, the internship is the way to go. Plus, you’ll probably get much better skills and networking opportunities! Most colleges and universities have offices where they can help you find internships. (Yes, I worked in Career Services at my college as one of my part-time jobs. I also work now at a non-profit that supports the efforts to find internships for high school kids.)
To Carmen: I know this flies in the face of reason but I would allow my daughter to take on some debt to attend a prestigious college. Sometimes a little debt is all you need to buckle down and study during college, knowing that you will have to get a good job shortly after graduation to pay off the debt. A better school also has better job recruitment as well. About marriage and family and having debt, worry about that when it happens. At this point, getting a good education is within her reach.
Carmen:
I am 35 years old and still have about $20,000 to go on my student loan debt. I graduated at age 21 and worked continuously (and at one point worked 2 jobs: during the day as an engineer and a bartender on weekends) for 10 years after that up to the day I went into labor with my son. And the kicker was that I didn’t even go to that great of a school–just a small Catholic women’s college my mother was in love with that was on the serious decline.
I have through the years envied the greater opportunities my friends that went to state schools had, and now they also don’t share my continued debt load. Their professors were frequently better-connected and had ambitions outside of teaching that led to greater connections for their students. My friends that went to state schools were more likely than my college classmates to have spent time abroad, spent more time with professionals in their hoped-for field, and even had better career counseling.
I know that your daughter has been accepted at an elite college, but the state schools really can do a fine job, and if they have a good Campus Ministry (like Texas A&M), she won’t lose her soul there, either.
Jennifer I used to have the same position as you, until I really began to see and understand the devastating effects of debt. With all due respect, do you honestly think that 40-50k in student loans is a “little debt”? It is a myth that a “better school” has better job recruitment. In fact the overwhelming majority of CEO’s went to a state college. Many lovely families I know are struggling financially because they kept putting off their financial concerns to tomorrow. Because these families are struggling financially they cannot be open to more children. I think we are called as Christians to live prudently and sensibly and not get caught up in “prestigious universities”. And, in the interest of full disclosure, I have a Masters degree, which are still paying off ($28K) and my husband attended an Ivy League school. I am currently a SAHM, but with my no-name school degrees I made over $100k/annual – we have a household income of $180k and are still amazed and bummed by what it costs to raise 5 children. I would urge all of my kids – boys & girls to be extremely cautious in taking on student debt – it often sets people up for a lifetime of debt.
To Mary: My husband and I agree with you regarding music at the Papal Mass in DC. He was there and I watched it on tv, and we both thought it was such a missed opportunity to let the Pope know we’re listening to him and learning from his wonderful teaching about liturgy… Of course, it’s difficult to have the same atmosphere in a church and in a huge stadium, still, I don’t see the point of celebrating “diversity” during Mass… Isn’t is enough to celebrate the Paschal Mystery and the True Presence? I think New York was much better.
I’m Italian and I’ve been here in the US for just a few years, and I never realized what privilege it is to have the Pope right where you live…
I miss the Pope already
1.) Kim, as Kathy suggested, you might look into what your public school offers in an “alternative” mode. Two of our kids attend the excellent local public school for music (orchestra/band) classes, and are on several sports teams there. They do the rest of their schooling here using online classes. For us, it’s been an awesome option. Enough socialization, but not too much, if you get my drift!
What is available depends on the district, but it’s worth checking out.
2.) Colleges, sigh. . . It seems to me (we struggle with this, too) that:
a.) Community colleges are often a steal, and the student can often earn the money for their tuition themselves as they go. I got an RN myself at a local community college and was astonished at the challenging level of academics. Also, they use a lot of adjuncts (people who have current careers in what they’re teaching) so there’s a lot of real-world, practical learning going on there.
b.) The Catholic colleges that are worth it are the ones who are committed to being enthusiastically Catholic. Sometimes it’s just window dressing, so examine closely. The college guide Faith and Family publishes is a reliable source of great schools, any one of which I’d send my kid to. (Actually, we do have a kid in one of them!)
It is funny that the subject of college and student loans has come up as My daughter will also graduate this year. My daughter is a very bright girl who the school system identified as gifted back in fourth grade. Even though my daughter is very bright, she isn’t certain what she wants to do occupation wise. My husband and I talked to her extensively on how going to college unsure of a major , even for a year or two, can add years of being in college and thousands of dollars .Since my daughter has been a State tested nurse’s aid since last summer she just decided at the beginning of the year to work as a STNA and go to nursing school, which is cheap in comparison. She will then be able to make a decent wage and pay for college semester by semester ( keeping loans low if she needs any at all ) once she decides what she truly wants to do. Since Nursing school is only eleven months long , it will not take a long time and she will always have it to fall back on.
That being said , I would like to ask for prayers. She took her entrance exams in March ( pretty late) and there are only a few spots left so she has to have one of the highest scores of those tested that day or she will be bumped to the next class. We should hear any day now. Thanks in advance !
As for the original question, I would advise against taking out large student loans without need. The economy which we live in is getting worse and worse and jobs are getting more and more scarce. I know of many who are years out of college, working two or three jobs, and still struggling to pay off their loans as well as have lives. For a few getting married and having the means to support a family is no where near an option. I pray that your daughter doesn’t have this problem but as a mother who struggled with repaying loans, I would advise that your daughter always be proud that she was accepted into the prestigious college but attend one less expensive.Also, I don’t mean to offend but in my opinion, many Catholic colleges degrees are no better than State college degrees. I would go to a state school and find myself a good group of Catholic friends.
As to the college debt, it seems as though you are looking at only two options – the really expensive, top tier school, or the state school. I would suggest looking at some mid level schools. If you daughter has good grades and all (which I assume she does since she was accepted into a selective school), she could possibly get a full ride scholarship at some mid level university. College debt is something to really look at.
I know I made my college decisions based in large part on what type of financial aid I would receive. I went to a private 2 junior college that gave excellent financial aid (ended up being the same cost a the state school, but with all the benefits of a private school). Then I completed my BA at a larger university. I did have to take out some loans my last year, but I completed my degree with less then $10,000 in debt which I paid off by doing volunteer service through my church that was approved for Americorp money. All that to say that there are many options to financing college and many ways to get a good education. Encourage your daughter to explore some. A good school is important, but so is not being heavily burdened with debt – which will limit one’s options after graduation much more then where they went to school.
Speaking of the Pope’s visit. I didn’t get to see much of it as watching TV is a very odd thing for me. I was however listening to a radio program where people kept commenting on The Pope’s Red Prada shoes. I was deeply saddened, though not surprised, that this was something that the secular media would feel was so important to report and talk about. It just so happened that a Parish group that my husband and I belong to were taking a bus trip last Friday which our Priest attended. One parishner asked Father his views on this and we had an interesting discussion. Father said that over all ” why does the Pope wear red shoes ?” by both Catholic’s and non catholic’s, was the most frequently asked question. Many , who realized that these shoes were in fact Prada also seemed upset that the leader of the Catholic church would wear such expensive shoes, and that doing so set a materialistic image of the whole Catholic church. I am not sure how I feel about this whole thing or that it even matters but one friend asked how I would feel if I went to church and the Priest was extravagantly dressed ? How would the poor of the parish feel ? Just a thought !
To Carmen: what a storm you’ve started here
Here’s my humble opinion:
Pray over this difficult decision, as a mother, and with your husband and daughter and as a family. It is a very important decision, and nobody can know what will come from it, so the best thing we can do is to make it in grace. Sometimes the big name of a school is all we want, because it flatters our vanity. But sometimes, we’re just looking for the best teachers and we have to go were they are. Sometimes, we just want a solid base for a good job. Sometimes, education is everything (I’m thinking of my sister, who never married and teaches college classes) And everybody could go on with their own motives. It’s such a beautiful, exciting moment for a young person! But it’s a very delicate one, too, and we have to be honest and recognize all the pros and cons of our choice.
My husband’s story: he went to a big school to pursue what he thought was his dream, and the burden on his family was great (and is great now on ours!) He ended up not using his degree at all, but we never complain about this: our education is part of who we are, and life is full of twists and turns… Sometimes he says: yes, with hindsight I could/should have chosen something different, but then I wouldn’t have met the same people, or be in the path of things that led me to what I have now.
So let me say it again: pray for help and guidance, and then be confident
Olivia, I too had low amniotic fluid in second and third trimester. It did help to drink LOTS of water and avoid all caffine. My fluid rose a little.But because the closer you get to your due date the fluid naturally starts “drying up” I had to have a c-section. This decision was not taken lightly and I was in shock that I would ever have to make that kind of decision. This was my 6th baby I was having (now expecting #8) and all the other pregnancies were easy-breazy and delivered totally naturally not even pain meds. My husband and I talked a long time to our doctor and decided it was the safest option for the baby. I guess my point is the baby was and is completely healthy, I was fine (longer postpartem recovery) and God took care of us. Try not to let what you read online scare you. I did the same thing and read the same things and worried for nothing. Everyone is different and have different experiences. Make sure you voice any of your concerns with you doctor and make sure he answers all of your questions to your satisfaction. God bless you and I and my famliy will be praying for you.
About the 14 year old homeschooled son who wants to go to school:
I would consider open-enrolling him in the school that he wishes to go to and let him take a few classes a week or a day. He could join a sports team, take some science classes, or whatever he is interested in and be able to see his friends while doing so but you could still be giving him the majority of his education. Honestly, school is not all about socializing so if his only concern is about seeing his friends he may soon realize that there isn’t a whole lot of time to chat at school. Isn’t he able to see his friends after school or on the weekends? I know how it can be hard to be home with siblings all day but we also must learn not to be so peer dependent…if he is able to see his friends at other times during the week I don’t see why he also needs to see them all day at school. Just a thought.
Good morning everyone!
Toys: We have a limited amount of toys available in the family living area, because I, too, feel like the kids get isolated and messy if there’s a separate playroom. However, we’re also going to set up a nice little play area — with a limited amount of toys — in their room (we’ve just moved into a new house) so that they can play in there, too. I’m going to be rotating toys in and out so that they get a change of scenery now and then. I find that this approach works best for me, since it means there aren’t huge numbers of toys out at once, and they stay interesting when they’re changed from time to time.
Books about children: Parenting with Grace, by Gregory Popcak is a good one that deals in small increments through the age levels. It’s more of a psychological development/discipline book than medical development. I also like Dr. Sears.
COLLEGE EDUCATION:
I went to one of the best Catholic universities in the country, I met my husband there and some of the best friends I could ever ask for. We are hugely in debt because of it and fortunately my husbands job will be able to cover the costs in less than 10 years. My heart breaks for those people who go to such schools as Franciscan , TAC, Christendom, Magdalen, etc and study something for the sake of educating their mind to the classics: Latin, literature, humanities, etc and they come out educated in the most important things but $60,000 in debt with no a degree that is very difficult to market. And if they get married to someone in the same situation you have upwards of $120,000 and want to be a family that is open to life, but the reality of it all is that you have a huge debt and unmarketable qualities. It is a Catch 22 I think. I wouldn’t trade my college education for any amount of money but it is something well worth considering before you make the decision. I like the idea of taking a few “core classes” at a community college first that will transfer to a Catholic college.
Definitely if your daughter (or son!) has been raised in the faith and is a mature thinker, you can trust that they would make responsible decisions at a less expensive state school or community college. It’s just as easy to get into drugs sex and alcohol at the best Catholic universities if you are looking for them as well. My advice would be to prayerfully consider your options and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.
ADVICE FOR SAHMS ON EXERCISE:
Because your well being is imperative to the smooth running of your family, you should really try to make exercise just a part of your routine. Find a YMCA that offers on site child care (your little ones will love the “new” toys and other kids, even if they throw a fit for a few minutes when you drop them off). Try to take your stroller out for walks or get a bike trailer for the little guys. For me, I think the biggest part of making exercise happen is fitting it into your morning routine, as opposed to the thought that you can just leave the kids with dad in the evenings and take off for a class of a trip to the gym: this doesn’t work b/c everyone is tired in the evenings. (for us anyways).
ON PRAYER/SPIRITUAL READING:
Start mornings out with morning prayers, dedicating your day to Our Lady. Try to teach your little ones about their guardian angel and the saints throughout the day and include a lives of the saints story with morning prayers or breakfast. Remember that their little minds absorb everything and they are eager to learn about the beautiful realm of spirituality and YOU are the one that has the awesome responsibility to teach it to them…Turn off the TV!!!! They are only young once. Get in the routine of saying night prayers as a family and include atleast a decade of the rosary. Try to read a little bit on your own after the kids are down and your evening routine is done. Even a paragraph here and there throughout the day can be helpful.
AMNIOTIC FLUID LOW:
Yes do stay off your feet, drink lots of water and wait for the doctors next check-up. I had the same thing happen and it turned out to be okay, but I think that it is very important to try to do all you can for your little developing baby…..Listen to the doctor, he most likely knows what he’s talking about. Swimming is a great low impact exercise you might want to ask him about…and great in the last trimester for the back and pelvic pain…..
Love this coffee talk!!!!!! May God bless all of these amazing Catholic women. How wonderful to have all this support. Anyone ever thought of getting names and locations of everyone to meet up in the different parts of the country for moms groups????
re college and debt:
I went to the University of Dallas, a small Catholic college and loved it. While I do think that debt is a factor a young lady should consider, especially if like me she’s going to be a stay at home mom–with a young family on one income college debt is a difficult burden– I think a college education is about much more than vocational training. Or it should be at least. I think too many colleges have become just that. But a true education in the liberal arts prepares you for life, not just for a job. Education is about forming your mind and your soul, about becoming a better human being. I am so glad I went to school where I did. I learned how to think and I discovered the intellectual tradition of our Catholic faith that shaped western civilization. Poetry, philosophy, art, history, theology, the sciences: if you are getting a good education, reading the best books, then it’s worth the investment. Especially because you will be able to pass that learning on to your children.
re daily prayer:
I pray the liturgy of the hours. I say morning prayer after breakfast while I nurse the baby and the toddler runs around. I say the prayers out loud and frequently she replies Amen or alleluia, she usually wants me to bless her and wants to look at the holy cards i keep in the book while I pray. Though sometimes she does her own thing and she does frequently interrupt, we are praying together and i’m sure god understands if I’m distracted. I try to say the angelus at noon and we say grace at meals. We also say prayers at bedtime and usually at nap time too (hail mary, our father, glory be and “God bless mommy, daddy etc”)
PS: Any suggestions on great (or at least not totally offensive) movies, some to watch with dh in the evening after the babies are asleep?
Kim,
We were able to involve our kids in the parish school ‘extracurricular’activities, like sports teams, choir, drama, band. This was directl through the priest. This took care of ‘friends’, without exposing them to role models that are inappropriate. It has worked for us,(so far) as two have graduated at home. I did find out, that for ease of enrollment in university, it was better (for us) to enroll them in an acknowledged highschool. We use Seton, so from grade 9, they must complete Seton’s requirements, and receive a highschool certificate at the end. This has also helped with discipline and motivation. Like I said, it worked for us, but only you really know your children.
re: college
We were lucky to find a faithful catholic college that was begun with catholic homeschoolers in mind:(http://seatofwisdom.org/site/content/blogcategory/67/90/)
that was inexpensive, and academically challenging. Our eldest went for three years (6500/yr including rm and board!) but since the college is less than 10 yrs going, and not yet fully accredited, he took his fourth year at Franciscan, to graduate (BA in Humanities and Catholic Culture)with honours.(Franciscan accepted all his credits on par). The lower cost of the first college offset the expense of Franciscan considerably.
He now works as a sales/development agent for a educational software company,pending law school. is married to his college sweetheart and has a baby girl!
My second son attended the same college for one year, and then went to a secular university to take business. His first year, although not transferable, was well worth it in terms of personal and academic development. He has carried is faith with him, and joined in the Catholic clubs and community on campus and in the larger community. So far, so good!(6 left to go!)
On the 14 yo homeschool son who misses having friends: If your son saw that all the kids in his neighborhood were going cliff diving, would you let him go? He might not get hurt, but it’s an awful risk to take. I think one big reason many of us homeschooling parents choose to homeschool is to avoid the dangers of public (and sometimes private) schooling. These dangers don’t become less when our children reach high school age. If anything, they get worse. Some children are strong and stalwart and learn to avoid the worst pitfalls, but how can we be sure that each of ours will be? Do we want to take the risk? Your son may feel he’s missing out, but, as his parents, you’re the ones who have to weigh the risks and make a decision based upon what’s best for his immortal soul. If a Catholic school is not an option for you, there are TONS of homeschooling options these days to get him linked up with like-minded kids his age. That may help. But, he needs to understand that because you love him, you’re going to do what’s best for him.
To clarify as to college:
I normally would have suggested Community College to my daughter. I went to the one in my city and it was wonderful and almost free (I was the oldest of
However there are certain ‘townies’ I’d like to see her separate from and quickly!
At the state school she liked, they are selling their chapel and creating a new spiritual life oversight program. I’m impressed with the people working on making spirituality a reality for all students but I don’t think my daughter’s ready to be a leader in creating a program. She needs to be ministered to as a freshman. (Besides the fact that drinking is the main activity from Thursday to Sunday)
Of the 22 top Catholic Schools, the only one she would apply to did accept her but it would mean a logistical nightmare. We have to consider the cost of flying across the country into the loan plan.
Being in New England she could have looked at many ‘in-between’ schools so we were lucky. At Assumption their is a real drive to maintain their Catholicty and Spirituality.
I would suggest visiting more than once. We were less impressed the first time mainly because it was all information. Our second visit was all about meeting the students and profressors, beginning with Mass. We fell in love.
Also check out the MySpace and Facebook loops for each college. Its eye opening.
I know I can’t help my kids now, but hopefully when they are all out of the house we can earn a little more and then help.
SAHMMIE, are you talking about recent movies? In this department, I don’t have suggestions. But my husband and I are huge fans of old classics: Hitchcock’s movies, Frank Capra’s, anything with Cary Grant, Audrey Hepburn, Fred and Ginger, Gregory Peck, and just all the usual great names
Turner Classic Movies is practically the only thing we check on tv. Just to name some favorites: To Catch a Thief, It Happened One Night, North By Northwest, Rear Window, The Quiet Man, It’s A Wonderful Life, Top Hat, The Father of the Bride (Spencer Tracy/Liz Taylor version!), Bringing Up Baby, Singing in the Rain, and a lot more!
You can check everything at imbd.com
A more recent movie I love is Chariots of Fire. I also liked Shadowland, about CS Lewis. And many more I can’t think of right now
Enjoy!
SAHMMIE: you can always check out the movies that are listed at “Faith and Family Flix”. It’s the “Christian” answer to Netflix. We aren’t members, but look for “good” movies based on what they have available. My husband like the “Kids in Mind” reviews, as well. You can search for movies there by rating (not just MPAA rating, but amount of s-x/nudity, violence/gore and profanity).
Haven’t read everything yet but wanted to comment about the college debt. My husband and I met at our state school which is well known and considered good, but also extremely large. The thing is, even with a state school, we both came out with over 20,000 debt. When you add his graduate school loans (very pertinent to his current career) we have a large debt load. we deferred his for a while, and payed the minimum for mine while he was in school. I know it is “good debt” but I have some guilt about how much I contributed to it, especially as I only taught for 3 years before quitting to stay home with my two children. And now we pay a lot each month and I’m not working to help pay any of that off. I wouldn’t trade my college education for no debt, but it seems that if we can keep it to a minimum or have a plan for paying it off asap, that would reduce a lot of the financial strain in growing families. I guess my point is, even at a state school, you can get into a lot of debt. I don’t know about the worth of a big name private or Catholic school since I didn’t experience it, but students should definitely consider the future ramifications (good and bad) before taking on a debtload. When I started, I planned on getting an engineering degree and paying off my debt my first couple of years. I definitely didn’t foresee changing my degree to education or deepening my spirituality, getting married 6 months out of college and starting a family right away. I don’t know that I would have done anything different, but I just didn’t think about things in that context. I was 17 and hadn’t thought about it. So maybe what I am saying is that Catholic parents should help their college-bound children to consider all the possible vocations they might be called to and the problems debt might play if they marry early, have a short career, or a lower paying career such as non-profit work or ministry, or discern the vocation to priesthood or religious life. I believe I’ve read that many orders and diocese don’t allow people to join when they still have a debt load. So no answers, just more thoughts and questions from me.
On college education:
It all depends on what your daughter will be studying and at which institution. She should find someone working in the field she plans to study and ask their opinion. It will give her valuable insight into how easily she will be able to pay back the debt.
If this school is the #1 school in the country for her degree program then it may be worth it.
If she feels called to marriage and hopes not to be working full time outside the home for very long then less debt may be best.
If she visited all the schools and felt most ‘at home’ at the more expensive school the experience may be worth it.
Plus there is always a chance that she may be eligible for more financial aid as the years go on. It is amazing what the schools can come up with to help out students that bother to seek out their help and fill out applications for grants and scholarships.
There are so many variables it is difficult to say how to go.
Here’s my experience. I wanted to go to MIT to get my BS in Computer Science – it was THE school in my opinion. Luckily I met someone in the software industry that was a professor at MIT right before I started my junior year of high school. After telling him which school I planned to apply he said something that shocked me. He warned me that unless I wanted to spend my career in a lab doing research I should get my BS somewhere else and then get my MS at MIT.
He suggested other schools if I wanted a job in a corporation. Then he continued to highlight which schools had the best relationships with corporations because of their co-op programs and that depending on which area of computer science I wanted to study I should consider different schools. One for computer graphics, a different one for operating systems…
My point is that I could easily have spent a lot of money on the wrong school. Someone else mentioned that it doesn’t matter where you got your degree from – and that is mostly correct but only AFTER you have experience to go along with the degree. At that point perspective employers will look mostly at your daughter’s experience and the degree is more of a check mark.
But that first job out of college… that’s where the institution name can make all the difference. By choosing the right school for her degree/area of study that debt may be easily paid off, help her land that dream job.
Hi Danielle (and any other New Hampshire people), I am coming up to the town of Meredith on Mother’s Day weekend with some of my kids, 13 and 12 year old girls and my 8 month old, I will be looking for some fun and inexpensive things to do…any suggestions? . Thanks!!! +JMJ+ Sam
Dear Carmen,
This is not really a “personal” experience with college debt, but a current one. My brother in law is in his last few months of college getting a rather specialized advanced degree. He has had to take on large amounts of student loans, so much so, that for the first few months, my sister was literally sick with worry for their family. Now, 3 months from graduation, he has already been offered 3 positions which pay an annual salary of 4 times the debt he owes. He is offered this much, not because of the degree he will have, but because of the institution he will have received it from. Additionally, the student loan repayment won’t start until 6 months after he’s begun work and the interest is only 2% – usually a pretty standard set up. I guess one thing to consider; in addition to the environment the school provides, is whether the college your daughter graduates from can make a significant difference in her job opportunities afterward.
Well, I went to one of those tiny Catholic colleges (Thomas More College in NH) and many of our graduates have done extremely well with our degree (literature, philosophy, political philosophy majors): many PhDs–male and female; JDs; I heard of one or two MDs, one or two politicians, and a few millionaires
. And lots of well-formed successful priests, religious, parents, and citizens. I agree with Melanie that not only is a (genuine) liberal arts degree invaluable in shaping your soul, mind, and imagination, but also that the political and economic worlds increasingly VALUE a liberal arts degree. My husband, who teaches at one of the most elite liberal arts colleges in the US, is the pre-law advisor. He spoke yesterday to a luncheon for accepted students and told them–basically–there is no pre-law education. Study what you’re passionate about, learn to read, write, think, and speak, and know some literature and history. In return any good graduate school/employer is going to be interested in you, esp in our rapidly changing, increasingly market-driven/global scale world. I really believe our eldest daughter has a religious vocation, and we have done everything to encourage this. But I’ve made it clear–and this may shock some of you–that we expect her first to get the best liberal arts education FIRST (and a graduate degree too if she so chooses). Why? Because the world desperately needs well-educated Catholic women.
Regarding college, there are many public schools that abound with excellent Catholic Christian havens — I know my faith was strengthened by having to seek out such spiritual encouragement. Also, I remember being relieved and strengthened to find so many others doing the same thing! As my mother pulled away from my dormitory that first day, she said, “Try to go to church.” I mentally rolled my eyes, but promised that I would. When I got up enough nerve to inquire of some upperclassmen whether Mass was held on campus, I was surprised by their response: “A whole bunch of us go on Sunday night. We’ll knock on your door.” No ridicule, no rolled eyes, no guffaws.
We are chipping away at lots of student loan debt in our marriage…but I am glad none of it is mine!
Also, some public schools are quite high-profile and have very recognizable names.
Oliva,
I really don’t know much about low amnionic fluid, but I do know about worring ALOT! So, I just want to let u know that I’ll be praying for you. I’m 15 weeks pregnant and measuring 18 weeks. I’m even worried about that. So, I understand all your concerns and my prayers are with you.
BTW: anyone know anything about measuring too big?
One of the most important benefits of college is the network of contacts that you develop. College friends are more likely to be life-long friends and are great career resources as well. It’s also where you’re most likely to meet your future spouse. It’s important to think about what type of students are at each school and where (and who) the average student is likely to be in 5-10 years.
I would encourage your daughter to eschew most campus ministries and join the local parish. Campus groups are VERY peer-oriented and lack the healthy balance of having people in all stages of life. Signing up with a ministry is a perfect way to meet great Catholic people that can act as friends and mentors against any negative campus culture. Having a parish family is a great comfort when you’re far from home.
You may also be able to negotiate with the more expensive school. Make certain that they have a correct idea of your family’s current financial state. It’s also possible to convert the “self-help” portion of the financial aid package from loans to work-study up to some cap. I always maxed out my work-study and manage to avoid loans all together. Work-study jobs pay higher wages and are usually performed on-campus. The costs that schools use for budgeting aid can also be reduced by frugal living. Buying a minimum of textbooks, avoiding buying food in addition to the meal plan, choosing the least expensive dorm, and general thriftiness can save thousands a year.
Question for all you great moms: don’t mean to get all “down” but DH and I have both been suffering from what we call “daymares.” Daymares are awful thoughts that plague us during the day, thoughts of horrible things that could happen to us or our children, little visions of terror that hang on to our brains. A mild example: my 7 month old hurtling down a waterslide. Does anyone experience these? What do you do? I utter little one-liner prayers, but Daymare plus Prayer times 20 equals A Good Portion of my day out the window. Feel free to just tell me I need counselling! Or maybe I should have my house blessed–again!
College: those small Catholic colleges are expensive, but worth it, if you do it up right. First, RE apply for financial aid. When they send you a deal, ask for another one. They’re small, so they can work with you as an individual. Second, don’t get married the year you graduate, if you can stand it! If possible, spend a year living at home and take a huge bite out of that debt.
Movies: DH and I watched the new Masterpiece Theatre JANE EYRE. There are 100 Jane Eyre’s out there, but this one is super duper. The young thing who plays Jane is just right: not too beautiful, but lovely to look at, and superb acting…
Regarding college debt…
I was accepted to Ivy League schools, small liberal arts colleges, and the state university’s honors college. I said that I would rather go to the state school than to burden anyone financially. But I really wanted to go to the Ivy League school (my father was an alumnus). My mother told me what her contribution could be when I was looking at financial aid packages; I would have to take out loans and/or work to cover the remainder. I got almost no aid from the Ivy League school, and couldn’t bear the thought of the loans I would incur going there. I got a very generous aid package from a liberal arts college (making it almost the same as the state school) so went there. I am happy with my choice. I am in graduate school now (PhD in biomedical science), and will have undergraduate debt to pay off when I’m done. But I don’t regret it at all, even if I never use my degrees professionally.
I think that the ultimate decision should be left up to your child. Education debt needs to taken in her name. If you are in a better position to assist her financially when her loans come due then you can her more then, but let her shoulder the burden up-front. I valued my time in college more because I knew what it was costing me.
I know people have asked about rosary CDs the past two weeks, and I don’t want to belabor the subject. However, I have a slightly different request. Does anyone have suggestions for CDs with the recitation of the rosary in Latin and other basic prayers in Latin? Thanks.
About those good but costly Catholic colleges…
My two older sons both went to Christendom College for two years each. Both met women there who would become their wives, and both have forged strong friendships with people who exhibit values that are a rarity around where we live.
Granted, tuition there isn’t cheap, but neither were the educational and social opportunities there. Now they’re both working among men who aren’t Catholic let alone active Christians, and I thank God for the foundation they both received that continues to shape them and make them men of influence and example.
In a real way, debt (reasonable debt, not excessive), if gone into with clear eyes and a firm resolve to accept that certain precious and valuable things are just going to cost more, can be worth the ensuing years’ worth of struggle.
I attended a Catholic college and got a degree in literature. I liked the literature program, was mostly indifferent about the rest of the core curriculum which seemed like a repeat of my homeschool high school classes, and graduated completely unprepared to find a job as a middle class girl from a family who moved a lot and therefore had no connections whatsoever in the town we were living in at the time.
If somebody would have sat me down and said, “Look, you’re not wealthy and neither is your family. Study literature if you like, perhaps as a minor, but major in business or communications so there’s some chance somebody will hire you to be something more than a glorified secretary when you get out of here,” that person would have done me an invaluable service. But *nobody* will tell you that when you’re in a liberal arts program; all you get is all the gushing about how important and necessary and vital that liberal arts education will be to you in all sorts of abstract and esoteric ways for the rest of your life–and that may be true, but again, as a homeschooled high school student I’d already HAD a pretty darned decent liberal arts education, and didn’t need to garner student loan debt (which fortunately only amounted to about $15,000) in order to repeat that education.
Every family and every college student needs to sit down and be realistic about their financial status, the amount of debt they can incur without damaging their opportunities to live their vocations, the sort of work that will be suitable for them, and whether or not they can truly afford the “luxury” of an education that is not aimed at getting into a specific career. For single-income middle to lower middle class families, allowing a child to take on student loan debt that will be double or even triple the family’s annual salary makes little sense, unless the child is truly gifted in the field and has extremely solid career prospects. While I appreciate all of the sentiment about the value of a “true” education for a Catholic, there is also a need for prudence in this as in every area of our lives.
I am saddened to see that so many of you think that a college education at the “right school” (however you define that) is worth going into heavy debt over. The majority of people have household incomes of $45k and still, people think they’ll be able to easily handle paying off 40k+ of loans, which over the life of the loan will be far more. I am not a pessimist, but so many things can go wrong with the plan of buy now pay later; career changes, marriage failure, sick children, unexpected children, economy crashing. Personally, I am bummed that my husband and I will be able to contribute little to our children’s college education due to our own school debt and our stupidity in getting caught up in a “buy now pay later” society. I’d like to see our children graduate from college with little (under 15K) or no debt and then be a in a position to save for their children’s education so that their children (my grandchildren) can go to their school of choice and not have to mortgage their future to be educated.
Well put Red Cardigan!
I am searching for an at home job that I could do to help support paying for Catholic education for our 3 boys. I have 1 in full time, the 2nd will be full time next year and I would like to make some income that would allow us to continue the Cathoic education. Any suggestions on at home businesses that any of you may have tried or could recommend. It seems to be a growing trend and would fit my lifestyle of wanting to continue to stay home with the kids when they get out of school each day.
Thanks and I just love reading all the posts. Such great information from all of you.
God Bless You!
Re: college
I, like many of you, went to college and graduate school with no expectations that my life today would be what it is: a married stay-at-home Mom of two kids and another on the way. I came out of my undergraduate years at a private liberal arts college with less than $10,000 in debt – not too much – because I got a lot of grant money. My two year Masters program was a different story – I came out with nearly $40,000 in loans from that. I, like many others, have never really worked in the field that I got my advanced degree in and I have been completely out of the workforce for nearly six years, when I got laid off from my job with a telecom one week before discovering I was pregnant with my first child. Do I wish I didn’t have these loans that my husband’s income is paying off (very slowly)? Absolutely. But, I have a hard time regretting my decision to go to graduate school, even though I might consel my own daughter differently when she’s deciding on colleges, since that is where I met my husband. I also think that my husband doesn’t mind the fact that he’s paying off my debt (he had very little college debt) because he knows he wouldn’t have met me if I had not gone to graduate school when I did.
PLEASE pray for a girl in my running group. This morning she had a stroke at our practice and has been star-flighted to the city hospital. She is the mother of 2 small children. So far we have heard nothing and are really concerned. Pray for her family: her husband, her children and parents. Pray for our running group. They were awesome in handling the whole situation but now are all worried too.
Re college debt:
My husband and I had two very different college experiences, but ultimately we are both completely satisfied with them and wouldn’t change a thing.
He went to Notre Dame and will never stop talking about how amazing it was. I have to agree, our trips there together are always incredible. He was on a Navy ROTC scholarship that paid for everything, but if he had to go back and pay himself he would. The community and faith experiences he had were incredible, as I’m sure can be said about similar small Catholic schools.
I went to a state university that was close to home and inexpensive. The academics were okay, but what made it worth it were the people I met and the Catholic campus ministry. If your kids go to public universities I would definitely encourage them to get involved with the campus ministries. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be surrounded by so many people their own age on fire with their faith.
As scary as it may be, try to choose the college based on the experience, the ministry, and the academics- not the cost. And most of all, make sure it is your child’s decision. There are many scholarships and ways to pay your kid can find if motivated.
p.s. Don’t worry about the “drinking culture” of the school. Just because everyone else seems to drink at their school, doesn’t mean your kid will. You will find grounded kids at the biggest party schools. Opportunities are everywhere, but trust your child to make the right decision.
Re: College…
As my mom always said, education is never a waste of money. I was extremely blessed that my parents were able to help me out a LOT and I didn’t have any debt. (Thanks for the reminder that I need to call them once again and thank them for their help.) Pray and encourage your daughter to pray, too, and let the Holy Spirit guide your decision. You will know the right path to take!
It’s tough to know the future when you’re 18, but don’t necessarily write off the fact that you might not use your degree after you graduate. If I hadn’t gone to a state school highly regarded for journalism, I know for a fact I wouldn’t have gotten the good jobs I had after I graduated. All I ever wanted was to get married and have a family, but I didn’t meet my husband until I was 28. I was glad I had a good education and a career I could rely on in case marriage wasn’t what God had in mind for me. Of course, after I was in my dream job I got married and we had our daughter 9 months later. I’ve been home since.
Olivia: Prayers for your pregnancy! May I also suggest you pray to St. Gianna Beretta Molla. Through her intercession a baby who was found to be in utero with NO amniotic fluid was born healthy and thriving. Again, I will be praying for your situation!
Concerned Friend ~ Praying for the mama who had the stroke while running today!
On college ~ Red Cardigan ~ Well spoken and exactly my experience. Four years of English ended up making me one heck of an expensive walking dictionary for my extended family. Of course, I met my husband in college and ended a darn good homeschool English teacher, which helps justify it! But, your admonition, Red, to consider costs, and realistic ability to pay off debts incurred is right on target!
We have ten kids, and have told all of them that they are on their own paying for college. We will give monetary donations when we can, but mostly we can give them encouragement and moral support. Our oldest son has put himself through college with scholarships, grants, and lots of hard work. It’s taught him to truly value his education and choose very wisely his career path. He also found out the best way to accomplish his goals was by taking his first two years at a community college, his last two undergrad at a state college, and his higher degree he plans to pay for through a military stint ~ but at an ivy league college.
Our second son down is mulling over his choices now because he’s not sure what path he wants to take and doesn’t want to waste money and time. We think this is wise. Honestly, if I had tons of money, I think we’d still want the children to make their own ways. I put myself through college the same way my kids will need to and learned far more from that effort than anything I actually learned at the college.
To Amy:
Measuring three weeks bigger in your pregnancy isn’t a huge deal, usually. With my first two pregnancies I measured a week or two bigger. Every doctor measures differently, every baby is different, and for all you know your calculations may be a little off and you could be a week or so further along than you thought. Or there could be twins…lol But I wouldn’t worry too much about it, especially if the doctor doesn’t seem concerned.
College debt…
I would like to comment from two perspectives…as a former employee in several educational settings and as a current SAHM with a husband who took on student loans for both undergraduate and graduate work.
First, I’ll say it takes a lot of research and prayer on your family’s part! Make sure that before you make any decisions, you’ve confirmed that her financial aid package is the absolute best that the university can provide. My first job was in the financial aid office at an expensive private university in NY. Families called all the time to make sure they had checked out every avenue for funding before making their final decisions. I was budgeted an amount of money that I could “award” to families at my discretion as long as they had need according to federal guidelines. That money basically went to families that called to say they couldn’t attend without more help. At the time, money also came in from an athletic source and we awarded it to anyone (with need) who lived within so many miles of a natural disaster. There is a lot of flexibility within most financial aid packages, but the universities might keep some reserve to attract students looking for more to make it hapen. If you cannot get any additional support from the financial aid office, I’d recommend calling the Admissions Office. My second and third jobs were both in Admissions positions. If I had worked with a student during the admission process, I could certainly “confirm” that everything had been considered from a financial aid perspective. Sometimes, they could gain additional funds and sometimes they couldn’t but it was part of my job to try and get students to actually enroll after being admitted.
In order to attend college my husband had to take out loans for our local state university. While certainly affordable by most standards, his family could not provide any support. Knowing that he was responsible for funding his education made him take it a lot more seriously than others who had parents helping foot the bill. He views this as one of the most valuable lessons about money in his lifetime. While our sons are young, we talk a lot about whether we should help them pay for college (if we can afford to do so) or let them take the same route as my husband did for the life lessons. My husband ended up going on to law school (at the expensive private NY school) where his loan debt increased dramatically! We will finally pay off his private loans next year (they were 15 year loans) and still have one consolidated loan from his undergrad/ graduate government loans. When we got married, I knew what his debts were and what they would be at the end of law school. We are both extremely practical people and know that being diligent has paid off. Sure we could think of lots of other things to do with the money and someday when the loans are paid off it will feel like a windfall. We feel blessed to have traveled the road despite the loan debt. My husband no longer works in law but we know this was all part of God’s plan.
I’m sure you are going to make the right choice. Educational debt is very different than credit card debt! What is right for your daughter can only be determined by your family. Debt is a serious issue, but when it’s managed properly it can lead to a lot of great opportunities.
And, of course, transferring schools later is always an option! Many admissions offices have programs designed to recruit transfer students to “replace” students who have withdrawn, dropped out, failed out, etc.
Amy who’s pregnant and whose baby is measuring big: My son measured big throughout my pregnancy with him and he was 10 pounds, 3 ounces at birth! And that was at 39 weeks. But he’s fine and healthy and thriving. I know it’s not easy to do, but don’t worry too much.
For Carmen ~
For University Costs: Did you know that there are many privately-funded grants that are out there, available to students in colleges who apply for them? Most universities have a library listing of such organizations, and a student who is motivated can, any time they wish during their college years, apply for any number of grants.
Some are from corporations, one example being Campbell’s Soup. Some are from foundations, and they can be needs-based or they can be to help a certain type of student, or just a motivated, good student. The foundation usually specifies how much the grant will be, and the type of student that needs to apply. Some are from religious organizations and other non-profits, who simply want to help fund a deserving student. Others are tied to the student’s area of interest, and can be found not only in library listings but through professors in their offices at universities.
Being a good student has many, many advantages. Having a handsome grant already from the selective school your daughter would like to attend, does not disqualify her for applying for other funding. She can do this at any time(s) during her 4 years at college.
It might be worth consideration to encourage her to look into this. If she is willing to invest some time into hunting these opportunities down, she may not need to work as many hours during college, and it could reduce her debt appreciably.
Very best wishes to you!
Our oldest is currently a freshman in college. Last year we were faced with the decision to have her go to a state university with no loans, or a catholic one with loans. She decided to go to the catholic school, but her loans are minimal. We advised her not to take out more than a certain amount of loans. It’s just not worth it. I would say 40k is definitely an excessive amount. It took me 12 years to just pay off 15k. I don’t think it’s good to have loans whether you get married or stay single. One of the important things in choosing a state school is to make sure they have a good campus ministry program and/or FOCUS there. Just because a college is catholic doesn’t mean they have good programs there. You must be very careful. My husband, daughter, and I visited many catholic colleges, and there is drinking and partying even at the most orthodox ones. Of course there are kids there who are serious about their faith, too. I agree that a catholic college is a good place to meet a spouse, but there’s no guarantee that you will find one even there. I say pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance. He will help you make the right decision. God bless!
I meant to mention that I also think that you can be happy anywhere and have a good experience from a state or private school. You can learn things at each one. Be sure that a catholic school has a good campus ministry program, too. If the campus ministry there isn’t good, then I’d say that a state school with a good campus ministry is better than a catholic college. Just my thoughts.
Concerned friend–praying.
Lisa–my kids call me the “walking dictionary” too!
Red is exactly right: “extremely solid career prospects”. Even though those orthodox Catholic colleges are important, the world right now just isn’t prepared to employ that many Catholics with theology/philosophy degrees (unless you then take that to a good graduate program in something else).
Ask your husbands: if they came into a fortune, would they quit their jobs? Do most people really “love” their “fulfilling” jobs? If not, if the job is going to be hard no matter what (and not this romanticized idea of a “career in the field I love”) then at least be prudent and pick one that pays well.
Go into the hard sciences. Nurses, dr’s, and health-related professions will always get jobs. Occupational and physical therapists can make $100/hr right out of school. Engineers can make lots of money. Law school isn’t too bad, either. MBAs usually don’t starve. But history, english lit, philosophy majors? Well, it is your choice, but you can always do that for your minor.
Not that is has to revolve around money and not that all education must be vocational, but do you really have the luxury of devoting 4 entire years to liberal arts? I, like Red, have kids who got all that in HS, thank God. And some of it can, and should, continue through college. But if the outcome is thousands in debt and a $25k a year job, you are choosing a lifestyle that is going to be very difficult.
Life is so much easier when you never have to worry about bills. I’ve been poor and I’ve been not poor; not poor is better. But for me, I decided that on purpose: poor was so bad that I did whatever I had to do to guarantee that I’ll never be in that situation again. A particular degree gave me that guarantee.
A 4 yr degree these days has been dumbed-down to the 13th grade so you almost have to go to grad school. I’d save the prestige for grad school, myself. And if it’s a good grad school and a major in a well-paying field, the job will allow you to pay back that debt without too much trouble. I know; I got married and we were a little over $100k in debt. We paid it off in just a few years; you can do that when your salary climbs up there. I’m sorry if it sounds like a numbers game, but for me, it was. We both sweated it out – and I mean, you really do earn that future salary in some of the vocational schools – but for us it was completely worth it. I want all of my kids to have that same financial security.
College Debt:
I didn’t have time to read all the comments, and I don’t like to post without doing so…..sorry about that this time.
Our daughter is graduating (a year early) from our home school next month. I think one main question to have our kids ask themselves is: where do you see yourself in 10 years? That’s a loaded question for sure, and some don’t know. But many girls, like my daughter, can easily say that they’d like to be married and staying home with children in 10 years. Our daughter, who also is very bright (thus the graduating early thing), would like to pursue nursing. She is pretty sure that she wants to go into pediatric nursing, being the oldest of nine kids and volunteering at our Children’s Hospital.
One phrase I love that my daughter said about debt is this: “Mom, I’d rather bring a dowry, not a debt, to marriage.” She is in the process right now of enrolling in the Community College that is 30 minutes away, and can get her RN, in two and a half years, for under $10K. No joke. Sure, it’s just the Associates Degree instead of a BSN, but to the hospitals, a state licensed RN is an RN, whether their degree is AD or BSN – the pay is the same (if she wants to advance into management, etc., she’d need the BSN). She can then go on, if she chooses, to our local university to get a BSN and it would be just a summer, fall, and spring semesters to get the BSN. This is a ton cheaper than going the full 4 years at the university, which would be over $50K total. The gal in admissions at the university actually encouraged us to go that route. She can live at home and save on expenses there too.
Regarding what Melissa said way further up: I don’t think a girl doesn’t go into debt “out of courtesy to her future husband”…..I think a student, boy or girl, should try to avoid debt if at all possible for themselves! Financial strain is a huge burden on a person, and I too have known plenty of kids graduate from great Catholic colleges with a liberal arts degree and many thousands in debt. I don’t doubt for one moment that the experience they had of a Catholic campus life was excellent and formed many great characteristics. But I still think this experience needs to be weighed against the financial burden it will cause for the individual, and then possibly later for a family. That’s why it makes sense to me to seek out an education that is affordable, working up from a Community College, to a University, and then on to Graduate degrees if desired. The academics can be learned on campus, while the social and character forming aspects of life can continue to go on in the home and with ones local peers (we are blessed to have a large circle of Catholic friends for our kids around here).
Not saying that you shouldn’t attend an expensive college if you can afford it. Just giving ideas for the rest of us who can’t.
Well put AnonAgain and Teresa G.
I would like to know what concerns so many of you homeschoolers have, and what is so horrible about public school. (True, I know that there are inner-city schools with terrible problems. I taught for one year at one of these schools.) However, there are so many schools across the country that aren’t havens of vice and mediocrity in academics. I would wager to say that drugs are everywhere; maybe not a rampant problem in every school, but still existing in each community. I am not blind to this. And I have also observed the permissive attitudes to sex and the like. I was a public school high school teacher for seven years. Most of my teaching career was spent in a middle class community with a large high school in an average size town. I did not have blinders on, and I did not like everything I saw. However, the school was not a horrible place.
I firmly believe that we are to be in this world, but not of this world. We must teach our children and form their character from the day they are born until they are on their own. Shielding them from life is a disservice to them. And withdrawing into your home as a means of preserving your child’s character/values/etc. seems like avoidance. How will good triumph if those of moral character withdraw into their homes, give up the fight, and shield their children from what they will have to confront sooner or later as they enter their adulthood?
Another question that I have been pondering: The children-to-be of those who are currently being homeschooled are going to be at even more of a disadvantage than the current generation of home-schooled children. They will be schooled by those who have had limited exposure to life. That seems like it should be another concern.
I have read on forums more than once, of college-aged homeschooled young adults who felt lost in a world they had just entered. All the home-schooling picnics, First Friday gatherings, and craft sessions, etc. just didn’t measure up to real life. And some cave when they are REALLY confronted with life: They may give in to the bad things that their parents wanted to protect them from all these years, or they may withdraw into the safe cocoon of home once again, to avoid a world they don’t know.
Home-schooling just seems like a strange experiment taken on by those who don’t have enough confidence that God will help them to strongly form their childrens’ characters and that God will guide them as sheep among wolves during these trying times.
I am sure that what I have said will not sit well with some of you, but I am asking this because I truly want to understand the homeschool phenomenon. Also, I am sure that some of the issues I have brought up have occurred to many of you at one time or another. If so, what made you decide on homeschooling anyway, even in the face of such issues as I have mentioned (along with other concerns that you may have had as well)?
I second Andrea’s recommendation of James Stenson’s books, as they certainly give a parent hope during these trying times.
Carmen — One thing to remember is that the college you go to really influences who you become as an adult.
Different schools have different personalities and while the state school may have a good program in your daughter’s major, it may not fit her personality.
Also, big state schools tend to give less one-on-one support and make it harder to switch majors– I know a lot of kids who were really good students but got lost at the state schools. Sometimes a smaller liberal arts college is better….
I went to the U of Chicago and have a fair bit of debt. But I don’t regret a penny of it… I met my husband there, I made close friends there, and I am the person I am because of that experience.
Have your daughter pray about it… maybe God’s calling her in a particular direction.
hi- my hubby and i always said that we are going to tell our children that out of hs that they will be going to a local college for freshman and maybe even sophmore year of college. they are SO young to make such a choice and need time to mature.
all that being said, that is if God calls them to not be a reglious or priest or consecrated.
annon111
Being a homeschooling mom as many others here are, when I first read your post it made me angry. But, I’m going to now tell you something that I told my inlaws and others who oppose or “don’t get” homeschooling. Instead of agruing against all of your points or concerns I just want to say that like with all subjects which tend to cause debate (ie, religion, politics, etc.) you really must deeply educate yourself in the subject before you can make judgements. When my husband and I discussed homeschooling 5 years ago, I too was actually oppossed to it and made many of the same judgements. However, after extensively researching the subject and even meeting with other homeschool families, I was greatly suprised at how my opinions changed.
Every homeschooled child that I’ve ever meet (and I’ve met many) are outgoing and extremely friendly unlike the schooled kids right within my own family who can hardly utter a grunt when you say hello to them. Now, I would have really thought the opposite about that, before I knew what I was talking about concering homeschooling and homeschooled kids. Anyway, that’s just one point to make regarding your comments.
My point being, if you want to know about something, than educate yourself on the subject before you make any kind of judgements – good or bad. It seems to me that you certainly know quite a bit about public schooling since you were involved in it. Well, if you “involved” yourself in the subject of homechooling, I bet you would be pleasantly suprised at what you find out.
Dear Anon111:
I am a young teenage girl who has been homeschooled from first grade, and I would like to respond.
Actually it’s not as sheltered as you might suppose. Home is home, yes, and therefore safer from more maliciousness than other places, but we’re not living in a time machine. We know of the evil that goes on around us, and I will shortly be taking SAT tests so that I can go into college programs early–not particularly sheltered.
By being schooled at home I am receiving a better education and wider range of subjects than I would if I was in public school. When I was twelve I studied Greek Archaeology in addition to everything else, and now I am receiving a healthy dosing of subjects that, again, otherwise I would not receive, such as archaeology, theater, opera, literature (in a more saturated form) and many others. I got one of the highest scores on our county-wide religion quiz. We don’t spend all our time in the house; I’ve made my personal lurk our local music building where I take piano lessons and will shortly take voice lessons. I sing in our church choir. Also I will soon be auditioning for a show, and who knows what colorful types of people I’ll have to deal with then!
So, as you can see, I’m not being ‘deprived’ of life. I’m ‘deprived’ of, well, jealousy, high-school drama, Girl X and Girl Z love Boy Y who likes girl A, and so on. Those things I can live without–I’m not so shallow as to feel a need to be popular and have a circle of nine thousand friends. The friends I do have are very good friends that I’ve had for years, and likely will have for years.
My family will tell you that I am a fighter (in fact, I’ve toyed with the idea of entering the air force!) and that I do not “give up” the fight and return to the “safety” of home. Home can provide a brief respite from the battle, but you can’t stay in hiding there forever. After all, evil can penetrate all places, including home, as the daily news will show.
However, in regards to your comment about God strongly forming character, I must add that God has indeed placed the parents in the primary care of their childrens’ souls. And if parents do not, to the best of their ability, attempt to properly form their children’s conscience and teach them correctly, they are held accountable for that.
I understand you to have the best of intentions and I hope I have alleviated some of your concerns regarding homeschoolers.
To Regina: I had “daymares” like you described, and the “mild one” was like my mild ones. I found that I was suffering from depression, and I sought help. That said, I have absolutely no idea whether you need therapy, but if you are concerned enough by your thoughts to ask the question, then definitely have a licensed psychologist evaluate you so that you can have peace of mind. Your pastor can often recommend someone, and you may be able to find a referral at http://catholictherapists.com. Keep blessing your house with holy water, and keep praying too. May God bless you!
On Pope Benedict’s visit:
The thing that he said that I will most remember is (and I paraphrase here), “Go ahead and accept Jesus Christ. You have nothing OF VALUE to lose, and you will gain EVERYTHING.”
Wow. After having read Danielle’s post of a few days earlier, this had me thinking that, if young people were told this, in exactly this way, I would bet that many would stay with their Faith, and with the Church.
Today’s society makes it all so complex and confusing. Benedict XVI makes it clear and simple. God bless him.
I loved watching his face, as individuals stepped forward and told him about their personal losses due to Sept.11, 2001. It was clear that he really listened to them, that he is warm and that he also cares very much.
This was affirmed by 3 of the clergy sexual abuse survivors who met with him, and whom I saw being interviewed on tv later. It is so usual to hear criticism and rage from groups that support these survivors, so I was interested to see what they would say.
All 3 were very deeply moved. One told of how he recounted for the Pope exactly what happened to him, in the Sacristy. He said the Pope “really gets it” about how serious this problem is; he listened and affirmed this man. The woman wanted to tell him what happened to her, but when she found herself with the Pope, she just cried. All 3 said it made a profound difference to them, with their healing.
This is what I love best about our Pope. He is a priest first, reaching out in love, to heal, as Jesus would do. And yet he is fully aware of the worldwide situation, and his own responsibility in it. I was, and am, very impressed indeed.
Just wanted to add the reason for why I wish to understand the homeschooling phenomenon: All of my nieces and nephews are being homeschooled! Also, I will never voice disapproval of homeschooling to them or their families!!! I am not making judgments regarding homeschooling. It’s just that, even after listening to their arguments in favor of homeschooling, I still don’t see its attraction. (I say “their arguments” because they seem to feel that it is their mission to get me to homeschool, and that I can’t be a part of the family until I do.) So, far from trying to anger anyone or make judgments, I simply keep my mouth shut and listen all of the time. I am hoping that “Coffee Talk” will help me to understand why they are homeschooling (from a deeper perspective; since I ask them no questions, I only hear whatever they happen to say as they attempt to persuade me and my husband). My husband and I personally don’t think it is our business to question those who homeschool (except in this anonymous venue). So…my questions were not asked in a judgmental tone at all…think of it as an academic, research sort of tone…and I think that will clarify my reasons for writing into this “Coffee Talk.”
An update on my friend who had the stroke this am. I just found out that she is going in for brain surgery this afternoon. It can take up to 8 hours. Thanks soooo much for your prayers!!! Please keep them coming!!!
Holy Cow is this overwhelming! Who knew that when we all woke up today God had this planned? It’s amazing how I think I have all this faith and then something so sudden and bizarre happens and I’m thinking, “WHYYYYY????? It’s not her time. She still has momma things to do. Her babies need her.”
Dear Anon111,
You know I have to think about that everyday that I homeschool! Even though we did make full use of the local public high school.
For us the biggest thing is that for our children to be ’salt and light for the earth’ they first need formation. A child who is a follower gets hidden under the bushel basket so to speak. God is calling us to do that at home first. While fear of public schools can be a trigger to homeschool it won’t motivate you in the long run.
My children have still seen divorce, foster families, unwed mothers, poverty, poor language etc. in our extended family, in sports, in our homeschool support group and especially in our neighborhood. My hope is that they are learning that those things should not be the norm. That is where we are called to minister.
My sister teaches in our school system, so do many I graduated with and they are incredible people doing great work. I prayed God would want me to put them in school when we moved here but He definitely showed me I shouldn’t.
I hope to go for a teaching degree and teach here when mine are all up and out actually.
Its a calling, not a condemnation.
The best explaination I heard of ‘in the world not of it’ was last year from an Evangelical homeschool teacher. We don’t want to look at something worldly and hide. We also have to guard against seeing something worldly and being jealous or even embracing it. Anything worldly that is definitely not of God should leave us looking for ways to engage: discussion, prayer, action, so that it is seen as it truly is.
I hope this helps and remember, newer homeschoolers may not be in the same place. It took a long time for me – I’ve been doing this 12 years.
Anon111-
Well, I’ll tell you. At home, my kids have learned to assume that people will be interested in talking about ideas. They assume that they will be treated with respect (more or less), and they assume that they ought to be polite and kind. They assume that they will have to be patient with people who aren’t their own age, and that it’s possible to carry on a conversation with someone who’s not your own age.
I went to public school for eleven years. They were pretty good schools, had a well-respected humanties and AP program, and were considered safe and relatively wholesome.
There, I learned that people who talk about ideas are weirdos and show-offs. I learned that there is some mysterious, unattainable luck that some people are born with, and I didn’t have it. I learned that I have to protect myself at all times, be wary and defensive, and I should probably strike out against people first, before they can hurt me.
I learned that people my own age are the most important people in the world, and I should lord it over younger people, and suck up to older people.
If I showed intelligence, courage, or any kind of deviation from a very narrow concept of what’s normal (in speech patterns, in humor, in taste in food, clothes, or music, or in anything at all), I would be mocked, ostracized, occasionally beaten up, and have my belongings vandalized with obscenities.
This was normal. Just about everyone I knew went through this to one degree or another.
How is this environment a preparation for the real world? Does anyone in the real world put your head in the toilet or draw swastikas on your clothes?
Homeschool can be a tremendously realistic and practical preparation for “the real world” because it IS the real world. It’s not an artificial separation from society the way a class of 30 other public school peers is.
In homeschool, you’re expected to behave like a human being. In public school, you’re expected to behave like the lowest common denominator.
I know most of this has been posted before but as a stay at home mom of three—
I wouldn’t trade my student loan payment for anything. I am so proud (in the good sense) that I got my BA and I wish I would have gone for my master’s. I loved college, I loved learning and being in school, I met my husband there.
If your daughter doesn’t mind the debt, let her go. It will be her’s to pay off and she knows what she’s doing. If she doesn’t, God will let her learn from her mistake.
AIM BIG for your kids!!!
I guess the main reason we’re home-schooling is because we really WANT to. (But if I couldn’t because of health, finances, etc, I’d send the kids to my parochial school in a heartbeat– it’s a good one!)
I think one thing to remember is that most people don’t homeschool because they’re running away from something but because they’re running TOWARDS something.
In our case we feel that we can give our kids a richer education out of a classroom setting. Also, ADD runs in my family, and I think the kids will really benefit from a system that lets them “let off steam” between academic subjects.
And I want my kids to be able to learn Latin from grade 4 (and Greek if they’re good. =) ) And to study HISTORY, not just “social studies.” And to have time to plant gardens, raise rabbits (once they’re older), build forts, play soccer, do ballet, learn piano and STILL have normal kid goof-off time.
I want them to be able to work up to their own potential, not to a random benchmark.
When I taught, I noticed that almost every child learned more quickly and easily from one-on-one instruction than a lecture. I want to give that gift to my kids, so they can finish “school” in the morning and have hours free to chase frogs, ride bikes, read, paint, and putter.
And I want to give them a good Catholic education (though, since our parochoial school is very good on this score, this isn’t the prime motivating factor for home v. parochial.)
I feel called to do this. So does my husband. (We discussed it before we got married) And even when it’s hard, it’s ultimately rewarding.
(Think Jesus and Joseph in the workshop together, St. Anne teaching Mary to read on her knee….)
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As for people getting defensive, I think it’s because usually when someone asks about this the tone is derisive… “How could you possibly do THAT? My sister/daughter/cousin/neighbor tried it and went insane and had to be hospitalized and then drowned all her kids. It’s unnatural, I tell you!”
Possibly this is because the ‘crazy’ homeschoolers are more memorable than the well-adjusted ones. I mean, do you really notice that nicely dressed eight-year-old boy who holds the door for you after Mass before he runs off to play with the other kids in the parking lot? His demeanor doesn’t scream “stereotypical sheltered antisocial immature home-schooler” so you probably just assume he goes to the parochial school.
But “stereotypical homeschoolers” aren’t really the norm– at least not here in Indiana.
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BUT we homeschoolers also can get snotty– especially when we start acting like it’s the right decision for EVERYONE. Home-schooling is NOT a matter of Catholic Dogma. It’s a lifestyle choice, and every couple needs to figure out what education is best suited to THEIR OWN kids.
Hope this helps!
-D.
Deirdre: What you wrote below was pretty funny!! I’ve actually gotten pretty much this exact quote from my mother in law:)
As for people getting defensive, I think it’s because usually when someone asks about this the tone is derisive… “How could you possibly do THAT? My sister/daughter/cousin/neighbor tried it and went insane and had to be hospitalized and then drowned all her kids. It’s unnatural, I tell you!”
Re: Colleges
I also am an alumna of the University of Dallas — I went because I got a full-tuition scholarship there. I am sure God wanted me there and it was valuable to me because of the faith-filled environment. However, after watching my younger sister struggle with college loans, my feeling about my own children is that I want them to go to schools where there is a decent spiritual life, preferably cheap ones. I would happily send my children to Texas A & M (a state school) because they have a great Catholic ministry and it is easy to be a good person there. I’d happily send my child to a large state school and let him live at home. But while I enjoyed my liberal arts education, I have to admit that right now, it seems like an expensive luxury.
Regarding Ashlyn’s suggestion that the student take on debt and not the parents, this may not be practical. Sometimes if the parents will not take on debt, the student can no longer qualify for a subsidized (low-interest) loan. This happened to my sister and she ended up with one loan that charges 16% interest!!!! She has a huge, huge debt load, and with a degree in music education, she’s not likely to earn a huge salary any time soon. I’d like to echo what someone said above about praying hard to discern what is the right choice for each child.
About the homeschooler considering high school — Have you considered that in 4 years, your son may be going to school and living away from home full-time, possibly in another state? Maybe you should definitely consider sending him to the public high school so he can have a chance to interact with people who don’t share his values while still holding his own. If he struggles with this now, you are there to help, or even to say “No, let’s try again in a few years.” Once he is gone to college, you will not be right there to help in the same way. He could turn 18 and join the Army! In a few years, you may not be able to guide him the way you can now. I’d probably take the chance if it were me. Hope that helps.
About the “Daymares,” I get those too, and they are a thousand times worse when I’m pregnant. Usually they revolve around something on the news, like kids being kidnapped, or a family being swept off a bridge in their car and drowning, or a house fire, or the big tsunami. Mine a lot of times involves thinking about these situations and having to “choose” which child to save. It can get horrible! I’m not pregnant now so it doesn’t bother me as much, but when it happens, I try to stop, quickly say the St. Michael the Archangel prayer, and consciously give over the worry to God. And I pray to my children’s guardian angels, that helps a lot, too.
About Colleges, I was lucky and was able to go to a small Catholic college (Benedictine College) and end up with $1500 in loans. (A great school, by the way!) Then I went to medical school and got into a program where you get your school paid for if you work for 4 year afterwards in a rural area in primary care, or in an indigent type clinic in the city. I knew I would like to get married someday and told myself I would work part-time when I had children. When I got done with residency, I didn’t want to leave the city I was in and set up a part-time practice and the other part I worked in a crisis pregnancy center and provided care to women who came there to fulfill my part of the bargain. Soon after starting that, I met my future husband and we got married a year later. Towards the end of my first pregnancy, I quit my practice only did the clinic work. Then when my daughter was born, I took her with me. Later, I even took the twins with me to work there! When my time was up, I quit work there to stay home full time. I do still overread sonograms that are done there, but that is at home. Some people think that I have wasted all that education, but I can see the hand of God at work in all of it. I wouldn’t have met my husband if I hadn’t gone to medical school and moved to the city where we are now partway through. And several of the women I saw at the crisis pregnancy center told me that seeing the sonogram that I provided kept them from having an abortion. So you never know what path God will lead you down or how he will use your talents. The main thing is to keep praying to make sure you are following God’s will!
Lindsay-
What could an 18 year old possibly know about what it means to have 40k or more in debt? This conversation has been interesting to me because so many women on this blog home school in order to raise children who are counter cultural; children who are well formed & holy, yet many of these same women are also saying that it’s okay to take on debt and you can always deal with it later. I don’t get it. Wouldn’t it be truly counter cultural to reject debt and work like crazy to pay as you go? I wonder if, because home schoolers are so enthused about education we lose perspective. It also may be an ego thing. I don’t know. I am very enthusiastic about advanced education and understand how a college degree is necessary to compete in today’s job market, but to allowing/encouraging taking on huge debt is short-sighted. Scripture is clear on not borrowing and I think we should give that serious thought.
I have some comments about the college decision discussion. Firstly, consider the best option for her soul in all of this. What does she gain if she goes to the state school but loses her faith? Which college experience will benefit her best from a spiritual standpoint? Also, from a financial standpoint and in general, your daughter should write a letter to the financial aid office of the school that she really wants to attend and explain that without more financial aid, she will not be able to enroll there. They may very well be able to come up with more grant money, a work/study program or something else to help her out. I did this each year of my college tenure and every year, they were able to increase my aid dramatically. Hope this helps!
My reason for suggesting that the student assume responsibility for the debt is that should anything happen to the young woman her family would not be burdened by the debt. For those of you who do not know, education loans are forgiven upon the death of the individual. (I’m not trying to be morbid, just taking advantage of potential safty-nets.)
For Jen going to the garage sale:
Do you own, or can you borrow, a baby backpack/carrier? If you stick your 2 y.o. in there, you won’t have to worry about chasing him/her. It will also be helpful for bathroom breaks on the road, since you won’t want to leave any kids in the car.
My kids are 19 months apart, and I found a backpack carrier to be extremely helpful. It kept my hands free to do stuff around the house or shop, and I could easily run after my toddler. My kids love to run, so I can understand your situation.
Also, what about the 11 and 9 year old cousins? Would you feel comfortable putting them in charge of your 2 y.o.? My older nieces and nephews with younger siblings are particularly adept at that!
If you don’t have a backpack carrier, you might think about a toddler harness. I got one for my running toddler who didn’t want to be strapped into a stroller or backpack. They’re at Target and Walmart for $10 and are actually really cute, like dogs or monkeys that hug your child’s back and have a zipper for them to put stuff in. Some people may give you flak for restraining your child like that, but it’s purely in the interest of keeping your child safe. (I’ve gotten both criticism and compliments, so you can expect both!) Hope this helps!
In my opinion both sides give valid( in their eyes anyway) reasons for and against Home schooling. I personally have seen home schooling gone bad where the teenage children of one family are not even capable of making eye contact and saying hello to me in the store when I speak to them,( yes I am being honest here) as well as one particular home schooling co-op that seems to produce children who are so much more articulate than any child I have ever seen. As with anything else I guess a lot depends on the child and the environments which they learn in. There are wonderful Public schools out there and horrible ones. Same with home schooling.
As I read the comments I do sense a lot of the ” let me tell you” kind of attitude from Home schooling parents. I truly believe that Anon really is asking because she wants to know ,not to put all of your choices down. The post from the Home schooled girl seems especially defensive to me( I apologize if this is not the tone which the comment was truly written in.) Would a public school child feel the need to explain ( defend) going to public school ? Maybe some would but it doesn’t seem likely. I guess that when someone is put down for their choices, be it home schooling, having many or few children, or whatever, they ( sometimes without realizing it ) tend to jump on the defensive ,even sometimes to the point of, attacking the other side. Perhaps we should all try to be a little less prone to jump to getting angry and just assume the best in others. Instead of telling Anon to “research ” home schooling wouldn’t it have been nice to post a couple links to sights that you found helpful in making your decision? After all aren’t we all in this world together?
I love our “baby leash” It’s especially great when we go to downtown Chicago. If my 4 year old stops to look up at the skyscrapers or the El she doesn’t stumble into traffic or get lost in the crowd.
She loves it and calls it her “don’t-get-lost-bear”
Some insight on homeschooling. My oldest son was “home instructed” all through High School by Public School Teachers because of some “issues” he was having. Before this he attended the local Catholic School. Guess what? His being schooled at home did not stop him from finding “trouble” in the neighborhood. Some 14 year old are quite rebellious, whether we want to admit it or not.
If your 14 year old son is interested in having more friends, the more power to him! Variety is the spice of life. By 14 they have the foundation. Ask yourself a question. “Do I want my son socializing with friends, whom I know and can get to know by talking with their parents and them, or do I want him roaming the streets looking for his “own” friends?” I think your son has a very valid argument for wanting to go to school. If he stays focused, and you set limits, there should not be a problem. Some of us are more wired to be “socialable” than others. Just my 2 sense. I mean no offense to anyone.
My two cents on college: I think it’s incorrect to say that going into college without knowing your area of study will make you take longer. Those first two years are usually pretty full of general education requirements to form a well-rounded education. Many kids come in and change their majors later anyway! I used my degree for a time and then stayed home for 15 years although I sent my kids to (gasp!) public schools. As the youngest approached school, I went back and got my masters and now teach in a public school (GASP!) My oldest is now on a full ride at the state university and goes to mass regularly there. My others are still in public school but are awesome students and amazing people. I will encourage them to seek education to the fullest before they were about their vocations of motherhood/marriage. I also speak of this because of my own experience: my husband has early onset Parkinson’s and may not be able to work much longer. I am SO THANKFUL that I am educated and employable. Sometimes being prepared really is necessary.
One more comment on college debt:
I just wanted to say that so many young people end up getting school loans, so it’s likely that their future spouse (if they end up getting married) will have them. I have friends where both spouses have college debt, and it has definitely taken a toll on them. So you have to consider that your debt may only be part of the debt you end up having.
Rachel –
I’m not sure I understand your point. I think everyone agrees that it is important to have a college education. I think the “discussion” is on how to pay for it. I too am grateful for my advanced education. It brings me peace to know that if need be, I could provide for my young family. And later I’ll be able to help pay for college. I only wish I had been much much more prudent in taking out student loans. I could have and should have paid as a I took classes. I would have benefited from someone stressing to me that I would indeed have to pay the loans back – with interest – and that would effect my ability to do other things with my money. But no one ever said that. They just kept saying “education is worth it” and to “just go for it” regardless of the final cost. For me, this philosophy of “buy now pay later” messed me up in other areas – I’ve been too loose with the credit cards, the car loans and mortgages, equity loans. We have always been able to pay minimum payments but we should have been thinking total cost, not just monthly payments and saving tons of money, living frugally and building wealth. We have sworn off credit cards in the last 6 and in the next 18 months we will pay off close to 70k in debt – mostly student loans. I will do whatever I can to help my children come out of school well-educated and debt free.
To Anonymom—
I have never had anyone respond to my post before:) As for homeschooling making me so enthused that I have lost my perspective, I was not homeschooled myself and I do not homeschool my children. Potato, Patata on that issue.
An eighteen year old probably knows very little about debt, you are right about that. Some also know very little about other aspects of the real world, like picking a health insurance plan or filing a tax return (my brothers also couldn’t wash a shirt, God love em).) We fling them into the real world, just the same.
I just want to say that, unlike a lot of people today apparently, my parents did not have a college fund for me, nor for my 7 siblings. They subscribed to the notion of food on the table, lots of love, parochial school education k-12, and the Catholic faith in our home for each of us. If we worked hard in school, we would get scholarships. If we didn’t, hello FAFSA.
I think encouraging, or supporting, your child to go into debt for a Lambourghini is one thing. But, if a bright and capable woman of 18 understands that this will be HER debt and she wants that experience from that college, let her go.
Anon111 -
I don’t homeschool my son, but wish that I could. Many of the things that Simcha mentioned are things that he has experienced in both public and parochial schools. There are wholly unnecessary things that go on in the classroom – truly vile, on multiple levels.
As a teacher you must be aware of that time spent correcting students could be much better used. Much of formalized school time is spent correcting and redirecting. Of the families we know who homeschool, the children in all but one family are educationally beyond their contemporaries. Please don’t think these kids sheltered, backward or immature simply because they don’t act in a manner our society would label as “cool.” I prefer to deal with people who are not insolent, obnoxious bores unable to generate an authentic idea; I don’t like dealing with the cool kids of our school system; I much prefer homeschooled individuals.
I say that as a mom of a child in the public school system.
Yes, the homeschooled kids will have to function in the “real” world which is different from their homes but in the interim they are being given a solid base from which to enter that world. I’m very hopeful that they will be able to infuse the world with something better than the world alone offers. Parents who feel called to homeschool and take that on as part of their parental vocation are doing, in my opinion, our society a favor.
It is obvious that you are not called to so do and if you want your relatives to stop prodding you about it, simply tell them that. It isn’t for everyone and they should understand that.
One last thing… Did you know that Nathan Hale – Revolutionary “Give me Liberty or give me Death” Hale – was a homeschooler? Proof that homeschooling can produce secure individuals capable of being a force with which to be reckoned. Peace. ~~~mary
To Carmen,
Please check out your library for many great books on scholarships and grants. I am a librarian and some good starting points may be “College Student’s Guide to Merit and Other No-need funding 2008-2010″ by Schlachter, Gail A. This is a reference book at my library. Another good one is Peterson’s scholarships, grants, and prizes. This is updated each year. Search using “scholarships” and you will find lots. Also, the reference librarian will know of websites that are helpful too.
Good luck!
College debt: I and my husband have lived to regret having so much of it. One thing to remember is that even if you are faithfully paying it back, it will affect how much you can borrow for a home.
When you are young, and have two incomes, you don’t notice how BIG that debt is. Then, when you want to have one parent at home with little ones, the bank will reduce the amount you can borrow according not only to the remaining income level, but by considering how much OTHER debt you are carrying.
This debt precludes us from having a larger home, and we have comparatively small credit card debt (needed for emergency car repairs and other non-negotiables). But at a certain point, the children aren’t just more numerous, they are BIGGER! The four bedroom house we thought would last us forever, and for which we borrowed the maximum possible, is shockingly small now that the kids are 11, 9, 7, 4, and 2, with another due in October.
Add to the mix that we have had non-merited job loss and a change in career — necessary, not for fulfillment. We have had our share of car trouble and home maintenance and natural disaster bills. We’ve always lived extremely frugally. In other words, ordinary life.
Choose a path of least debt and the student working to defray expenses, that would be my advice. The more freedom from debt she has, the more opportunity she has to go back and get that advanced degree, start her own business, spend a year in the missions, or get married and quit the job right away to have lots of kids and raise them in the faith.
IMHO.
I’ve read many of the above comments about college debt and have one thought to offer. My husband has recently retired from the Air Force, and was an ROTC instructor twice during his career. He highly recommends pursuing ROTC at any college (Air Force ROTC, that is). The ROTC programs will pay for some or all of your college debt. It offers great leadership training, and you owe them up to 4 years of time to the Air Force, in your career field, after graduation. It may sound like 4 years is a long time, but having been married into the Air Force for 13 years, it is, in general, a conservative environment. Also, many companies like some experience, and the 4 years you give are a great way to have the degree, experience, and no, or minimal, debt. Besides , you graduate with an automatic job. Just a thought!
My family had the gift of being blessed by Pope Benedict on his popemobile route along Penn. Ave. in DC. We’re still reeling in the joy of the moment when he looked right at us!
I’m with Carol – please keep the ideas for toy control/organization coming! My children are 6,4,2 and newborn and it’s not the cleaning that’s taking too much time, it’s the picking up after them! Any ideas are welcome! Thanks!
What are some of these public schools with good Newman centers/Catholic programs?
I know of Texas A&M, U of Illinois, and U of Kansas.
What other ones are there? It would be good for everyone to know!
Anon111:
I think if you ask 100 different home school families why they home school, you will likely get 100 different answers. I will explain in a bit a few of the reasons we home school.
But first I have to say, to you and Diane, that it is a little hard for a home schooler to NOT become defensive or not think one’s way of life is being criticized when statements like this are made:
- that home schoolers are “shielding them from life”, “withdrawing into your home” and “giving up the fight”
- “The children-to-be of those who are currently being homeschooled are going to be at even more of a disadvantage than the current generation of home-schooled children. They will be schooled by those who have had limited exposure to life.”
- “Home schooling seems like a strange experiment by those who don’t have enough confidence that God will help them….”
WOW. WOW again. How can one not feel like one’s who vocation to home schooling is being decimated when these comments are made? This doesn’t sound like the opening of an “academic discussion” to me. I don’t know whether to be frustrated with those comments or amused.
We have home schooled our kids from the very beginning; I guess that was 12 years ago. Our oldest is now a junior in high school and graduating early to start college this fall. Although she is very much a cooperative, likeable, very morally formed young woman, she is in no way withdrawing into our home (and neither are our other kids). I’m not sure why you think that the only activities home schooled kids are involved in are other home school events (HS picnics, First Friday masses, etc as you mentioned). Most kids in our home school group of over 80 Catholic families here in Ohio are very involved in other “outside” activities. Sports, dance, music, academic pursuits, volunteering, etc come to mind. These are all mingled with kids in what you would call the “real world”.
Back to my oldest daughter, who is 17. Here’s how she responds to a real life situation in the real world: She volunteers every week at the Children’s Hospital downtown. She drives herself there (I’ve never been there to “hold her hand”….she had to get it all going on her own) each week. She has met a girl friend there who is 19. This girl has quickly befriended my daughter, and shared with her on many occasion problems with her love life. She is cute as can be, petite and pretty, but unfortunately is very promiscuous. She at first thought she was pregnant, and told my daughter that she was afraid to tell her parents. When she realized she wasn’t pregnant and had a new boyfriend, she proudly told my daughter that they had decided to not have sex until they’d been together for six months. A few weeks later she got my daughter’s opinion on moving in with her boyfriend this summer. Did my daughter run and hide in our home, or freak out because she had met someone with different values than she has? Of course not. She has learned how to be a good friend from having good friends for many, many years. She gave this friend a listening ear, but also unabashedly encouraged her to wait until she was married to have sex with the boyfriend, not six months. The other girl said, “Well, it’s a little late for that”, and my daughter told her it’s never too late. My daughter emailed back and forth with her, quoting current statistics about couples living together, trying gently to convince her friend why she shouldn’t move in with the boy. And on and on.
My point is, our kids aren’t freaks of nature from some experiment gone wrong, unable to cope with society’s current ails. This is just one example of many of how my oldest, as well as our older sons who are 15 and 14, have interactions with people who don’t have the same morals. There have been many times when the kids are in situations like this. They have jobs and are involved in classes and activities with other kids not home schooled.
We are not giving up the fight by home schooling; we are preparing our children for the fight just like you are preparing yours, just in a different setting. In brief, my husband and I choose to home school because of the close relationships that have formed with our children through educating them at home, because of the wide range of academic and extracurricular things they can pursue with a passion, and because it works well with my husbands ER schedule. We are also glad that we are the first and lasting influence in the moral arena, and have many opportunities for character formation since we are together a lot.
I am sure that this post will come across as defensive; so be it. But I have resolved to look at your comments in a humorous rather than angry light, realizing that you may just misunderstand home schooling, or maybe the only home schoolers you are exposed to are living more quasi-Amish. The vast majority of us just want to raise our kids in the way we feel God is leading us, and we’re blessed with the freedom from God and the state to choose the right academic path for us. As another reader put it, not every one is called to home school, obviously.
It seems like there was another point I wanted to make, but it’s been lost because I’ve been running back and forth to catch American Idol with my husband and kids and writing this on commercials! Sorry if it’s disjointed – just had to see everyone sing Andrew Lloyd Weber songs!
My two homeschooled kids both graduated from our state university debt free (due to earning some awesome scholarships, doing work study, and getting some help from us). DD is marrying into student loan debt, and is tremendously glad that she’s not bringing debt to the marriage as well. She met her awesome Catholic fiance the state university and made a number of very strong friendships with some wonderful faithful Catholic kids. Were all the Catholic students on campus like that – uh, no. Could you find the ones that were? Absolutely. We have friends who sent their daughter to a fine Catholic college (one of the good ones) and she’s now seriously romantically involved with an atheist.
With the economy what it is right now in our area a college degree that isn’t a technical type degree (nursing, radiology, engineeering etc) isn’t worth much in the job market. My dd who graduated magna cum laude has been mostly doing secretarial work for under $14 an hour. Taking on tons of debt at this point just for the prestige of a name school probably isn’t worth it. Recent surveys show that the graduates of the prestige schools really don’t make more money for the most part (although low achieving students of prestige schools may have a better shot at jobs than low achieving students of other schools). My son actually wishes that we’d taken the money we invested in his education and started him in business instead.
If it’s a choice between an excellent Catholic college (from a faith standpoint) and a secular university with no real Catholic environment perhaps a Catholic college would be better, but if it’s a choice between say Notre Dame or Princeton and your state university, I’d think long and hard about encouraging her to avoid the debt.
As a homeschooler, I must say that I don’t understand why so many of you are so defensive about your decision to homeschool. By being defensive and even trying to belittle the other person who has an opposing view by telling them that their position is “humorous,” you are in fact making a statement about yourself. Because it all boils down to this: Anyone who is totally confident in their decision will not be defensive. They are secure in the knowledge that they have made a good decision, no matter what anyone else thinks. Defensive people are insecure in some way and feel threatened by opposing views. Also, defensive people do their cause no good, because defensive people lack credibility. If you really want to help the homeschooling cause, simply state why you homeschool in a confident manner.
Teresa G.,
I think that your post is very defensive and a little out-of-line. Anon111 was asking for information. If you felt that her post was humorous, you probably should have just stayed out of the discussion instead of trying to put her down. Defensive posts like yours simply confirm what some already believe about us homeschoolers–that we are a defensive, snobbish lot who won’t tolerate other ideas and the expression thereof. Maybe Anon111 stated her ideas in a blunt, frank way, but some of her questions were valid and potentially thought-provoking. There is nothing wrong with having ideas and some of us here appreciate discussion.
Re: toys —
Our house is fairly small, so most of the kids’ toys are in their shared bedroom (I have a girl almost 3.5 and a boy almost 2.) In their room is a cubby/toy shelf I got from Target for $40. It has 9 square openings, 3 across and 3 down; they call it a cubicle. I also bought 2 canvas storage cubes w/handles for 2 of the openings, one for play food, the other for mega bloks. The rest of the spaces are open, so the kids can easily put their toys away. I also have a separate plastic see-thru storage bin w/ lid for stuffed animals.
In the living room, there is an open storage bin containing other toys that mostly get played with in the living room. There is no way I can keep toys from traveling all over the house. I feel that that would inhibit the kids’ play and that I have lots of other things to do around the house, so why worry about that? A few toys always end up in the kitchen, and I put those back into the appropriate room when I have a spare moment. Especially messy toys are kept in a closet (puzzles, playdoh, board games) and can be played with when I say it’s ok, meaning I’m prepared to pay attention to the mess or participate.
Throughout the day, I get the kids to help me tidy up toys they’re done playing with (esp. the easily scattered ones that make the room look really messy). I also tidy up when they’re napping. At the end of the day before bed, I have them help me clean up again. It’s important to allow a lot of time for this to happen, as I ‘ve found that I get snappy and stressed if clean up happens too close to the time they’er supposed to be going down.
The 3.5 y.o. is a big help with tidying. Maybe b/c she’s a girl or seems to have inherited my mom’s cleaning instincts or both. Whatever the case, I have made it clear that she needs to help clean up her mess and even messes that her brother may have made instead. Some days she does it quite willingly, some days it takes more prodding. I’ve found that the “clean up” song helps reluctant kids get into it. Sometimes I’ll also use delayed gratification, i.e. if you clean these up you can watch that movie or go outside, etc.
I just wanted to say that I attended Christendom College for four years and got my B.A. in English literature. I have only worked briefly since my graduation (I am married with two young children, and I stay at home with them). I had a good high school education, but in my experience the intellectual development I experienced in college was absolutely priceless. If a young person wants the opportunity to really learn to think, debate, experience a wide variety of subjects, engage other students and professors, then I think a liberal arts education is worth it for them. I did workstudy jobs while I was taking classes, and worked in retail while home on breaks. This helped a bit, but even with scholarships, grants, and my own earnings, I graduated with just over $10,000 in loans (that includes interest). Pretty moderate by today’s standards. I don’t think it’s immoral to get into debt, provided you reasonably expect to be able to pay it back. But certainly, any 18 year old should go in with his or her eyes wide open, and ready for a lot of hard work.
I know some people who successfully paid as they went for their degrees, and I know others who could never find time to study, had to drop out, and wound up in jobs they didn’t like because they couldn’t get anything else.
Now, I had the great benefit of a wonderful (though certainly not perfect) Catholic environment at my college. This was my primary reason for choosing Christendom. I really grew in my faith there, and I have very good friends to this day whom I met there.
My education in the liberal arts has been one of the most fruitful investments of my life–I can’t describe the enjoyment my husband and I have in thinking and talking about theology, politics, literature–everything. And as I’m planning on homeschooling, I feel more confident in myself for having this background. I admit, though, that $40,000 in debt would probably have prevented me from choosing a particular college, no matter how much I wanted to go there.
Bottom line: I think it greatly depends on the individual in question. Moms and Dads, you know your kids better than just about anyone–but don’t discourage them from following a particular path only because it will be difficult for them. I do think that an 18 year old who has very little concept of money should be encouraged to minimize their debt. And I’m so happy that I have 13 years or so before I have to start worrying about this! Best of luck to all those moms out there who are wrestling with this issue now!
I just have one final thought: it does seem (on the surface) like a waste to spend a lot on a woman’s education when she wants to be a stay at home mom, BUT, we don’t know the future, and it’s good for every woman to have the ability to support herself in some way. You never know what can happen. Just because a young woman wants to get married young doesn’t mean that’s what God has planned for her. And even if she does marry young, God may still have plans for her that education will help bring to fruition. And for some, like me, the usefulness of education wasn’t the only point to be considered.
Choosing the Right College 2008-9: The Whole Truth About America’s Top Schools
Editor in Chief: John Zmirak
Introduction by Walter E. Williams
Publisher: ISI Books
http://www.isi.org/college_guide/choosing_right_college.html
The Newman Guide to Choosing a Catholic College: What to Look For and Where to Find it
Edited by Joseph A. Esposito
Publisher: Distributed Presses
http://www.isi.org/books/bookdetail.aspx?id=dcc3f1d7-9162-4294-b0ad-3047c9108934
All-American Colleges: Top Schools for Conservatives, Old-Fashioned Liberals, and People of Faith
Editor in Chief: John Zmirak
Publisher: ISI Books
http://www.isi.org/books/bookdetail.aspx?id=f265b43c-5b48-4a57-b740-2fd310414b27
Sandy and Emma,
I disagree that my comments were out of line. Actually, I think Anon111’s original post was bordering on out of line. If you reread the post, she wasn’t quite asking questions as much as making statements about home schooling or her perception of it. How do you interpret the comments she makes, like that home schooling is a strange experiment by those who don’t have enough confidence in God? What do you make of the statement that our children’s children will be at a disadvantage because they will be taught by people who had limited exposure to the real world?
When Anon111 clarified in her second post that she was really wanting to just engage in an “academic, research sort of” discussion, she should’ve changed her original comments if she didn’t mean to offend.
I too, appreciate discussion, even with those with opposing views. I think it’s just common courtesy to not make scathing remarks about a topic when inquiring about it.
I don’t buy the stuff about being defensive, Sandy. I am very, very confident in my decision to home school. I am also very confident in my position about abortion – and I get very defensive about arguing that point. Maybe it is a character flaw….I realize that when we get defensive we cannot make our point as well; I become less articulate as my temper flairs. Still, I would say that it is a personality trait that doesn’t allow me to express myself clearly, not something that calls into question my credibility or confidence in the path I walk.
Anon111:
Homeschooling isn’t actually a bizarre new experiment — many people have been homeschooled down through the ages, including such greats as Abraham Lincoln. It’s a tried and true method of raising one’s children.
I’m sorry you and your husband are victims of overzealous homeschool advocates. In every cause (our beloved Faith included!) there are some who are going to really turn people against that cause by their aggressive and (perhaps) inappropriate advocacy, and that this aggression doesn’t usually speak for the cause itself. So, on behalf of homeschoolers who aren’t like that, I hope that you learn from this discussion something about homeschooling that helps answer your questions and objections.
Elizabeth B.-
memories of student debt in the $10k range, today’s typical college graduate is burdened with a heavier loan. Again, I am in favor of higher education for women and men but it is not “priceless”. It certainly comes with a real price – one that each student needs to know & understand.
I loved you post well written and fair. Just one comment to add. I’m not sure when you graduated from Christendom but the current tuition, room, board and fees in $25,444 a year. If a student is not careful, they could easily come out of there owing $40k -50k, if not more. I don’t have the figures handy, but it is my understanding that college costs have increased much more quickly then the cost of living. So, while many of us may have “fond”
Thank you, Elizabeth B., for your nice, even-tempered post. You (and some others) have pointed out a good distinction between debt that seems worthy (education) and that which does not (fancy car).
I did feel defensive when I read one woman confessing to guilty feelings that her husband is paying off her college debt- I don’t like debt, but I don’t feel guilty. Having a mom stay out of the workforce to raise kids requires sacrifices from both spouses for an agreed-upon ideal. Presumably, I’m not piling on frivolous debt while I work, paycheck-free, to take care of my husband, our kids and our house. I would not expect my husband to feel guilty that I don’t get paid to do my work. We are both doing our part.
Are the people who quoted the Bible against any borrowing mortgage-free? (If you are, tell us your secret!) We aren’t allowed to pay-as-we-go for our house. We had to borrow. That doesn’t make me feel guilty for living in a house.
Which brings us full-circle: I guess some would say that college debt doesn’t count as “necessary”. Maybe not necessary, but, depending on what we put into it and get out of it, college debt certainly qualifies for the “worthy” category.
Diane – about the Pope’s shoes. Don’t despair – they’re not Prada! After the rumor got started some time ago, the Vatican officially denied that his red shoes are Prada and has stated that the shoes are made for him by a cobbler. Many reputable news sources have confirmed this recently in online articles (ABC News, NPR, etc.) and I heard it discussed on EWTN by Raymond Arroyo and Fr. Richard Neuhaus this past week. It would disturb me greatly for the Pope to wear Prada, but it’s just a rumor.
Sandy and Emma, clearly you have some deep-seated unresolved issues about your own homeschooling, which cause you to lash out at people who are simply explaining their choices by labeling them “defensive.” And if you disagree with me and defend yourselves, then obviously you’re just feeling so insecure and threatened that you have to become defensive.
Okay. I’m kidding, naturally. But do you see how this little “game” works?
It’s easy to call other people out for “defensiveness” when you haven’t walked in their shoes. Maybe they get attacked all day long for their choice to homeschool, from relatives, neighbors, friends, total strangers at the grocery store, etc. Maybe they read the post in question as I did–the tone definitely came across as both rude and superior, as if the writer felt both qualified and justified in putting the lives of people who choose to live differently than she does under her microscope. Now, she did come back and explain further that she didn’t intend this tone, and one is free to accept her words at face value, but there’s no denying that the “defensive” posts were in response to a very real attitude present in that first post.
No one should have to get defensive about homeschooling–but in a world where a lot of people who know almost nothing about homeschooling frequently choose to attack it, some level of defense is sometimes going to be present.
A similar situation exists for large families: no one should have to defend the choice to have six, seven, eight, nine, etc. children, but that doesn’t stop rude and pushy people from handing out unsolicited comments all the livelong day such as “Don’t you know how this works yet?” “Are they all yours?” “I can’t even stand my two!” and “Why would anyone want so many kids?”
And after a certain number of those comments, the beleaguered mother of many may stop having that “confident, serene, non-defensive” attitude, and get a wee bit annoyed with the questioner. I don’t find that “weakly defensive” for such a mother or for homeschoolers; instead I find it human in a way which is sometimes the only way to stop nosy, rude people from grilling a family over lifestyle choices which are quite simply none of the observer’s business.
Emma,
How come if Anon111 is blunt and frank, her points are valid and thought provoking? Why is it that when Teresa G. speaks bluntly and frankly, she is “a little out of line?” Can there be a real discussion if only the side that has the same viewpoint as you can make valid arguments? Will the opposing opinion always be considered “defensive?”
Is it okay to defend yourself if someone is kicking you? Or is that out of line, too? Anon111 was clearly bashing homeschoolers. I would call her comments combative. She not only condemned this generation of homeschoolers, but also the next one! But please, no one be offended or get defensive!
Give me a break. It also seems that Anon111 lacks courage, since she can only make her arguments to strangers under the protection of anonymity. Who’s afraid of the “Real World” now?
re: toys
We have always had too small of space for toys. I chose the most played with (i.e. legos, playmobile, blocks etc. ) and have clearly marked bins for them. We have a set of open shelves they fit on in the family room.
We have a ‘toy trade’ once a month. This means we trade out to the garage, toy bins for other ones that have been stored there for the month (up high). This way, the toys seem new, are played with more frequently, AND they don’t all have to be picked up daily!
We keep no toys in the bedrooms and everyone picks up before each meal, snack and bedtime.
God bless!
Regina,
About the daymares: one possibilty is to consider that it might be OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). I’ve had for most of my life (it waxes and wanes) and it’s not just about washing your hands obsessively or checking to make sure the doors are locked. It can also be about disturbing thoughts or images that stick in your mind and that you feel you can’t get rid of. It can be a disturbing image like the one you describe, or it can be a scary thought like, “what if I deliberately run my car into that bicyclist?” Studies show that many OCD moms have unwanted thoughts about harming their kids, which are of course an absolute nightmare for them … they don’t want these thoughts but the more they try to repress them the more they come back.
Not everyone with daymares has OCD, of course, but if it’s something that really troubles you, it might be worth looking into? I spent years dealing with it in silence before finally getting the courage to see a therapist. I’m telling you, my quality of life shot up once I was actively confronting it. There’s the OCD Foundation (haven’t been to their website in a long time, but I remember it as being good a few years ago). Two great books are also The Imp of the Mind by Lee Baer and Tormenting Thoughts and Secret Rituals by Ian Osborn (I like the latter because he talks about the role of faith in helping with OCD).
Anyhow, this may not be your issue at all, but if it helps any other mom out there I’m so glad! No one should have to suffer OCD in silence. At any rate, hang in there!
I’m a homeschooling Dad and had to see what was keeping my wife up so late on a school night. After reading Anon’s post, now I know. I would hardly characterize her first post as a humble inquiry by someone genuinely interested in a topic they obviously know little about. I would call it a tongue-lashing. The tone was as condescending as it was revealing about the author.
First, Anon assumes all homeschoolers think public schools are horrible. Where did that come from? I don’t think they’re horrible, I just think homeschooling is better for my children. Who doesn’t want what they believe is best for their children?
The best Anon can say about public schools is that they’re “not horrible.” There are even some that are not a haven for vice and mediocrity! That is hardly a stellar endorsement for public schools. If Anon was trying to sell me car and the best she could say is, “It’s not a horrible car,” I don’t think I’d buy it. As for the sex and drugs being everywhere, I can confidently say they are not in my home…except for Mom and Dad and I’m not referring to the drugs.
Anon is not musing about the merits of homeschooling, but has drawn conclusions based on her limited knowledge of the topic that comes from family members with whom she apparently cannot have a civil conversation. To wit, we shield our children from life, do them a disservice (as well as the next generation), withdraw into our homes, live a life that is not “real,” and are engaged in a strange experiment because we have little confidence in God. How utterly insulting and bigoted! Following these statements Anon has the audacity to say, “I am not making judgments about homeschooling.” Hellllooooo…..how could anyone describe her statements as having anything but a “judgmental tone?”
If Anon was really interested in an “academic, research sort of tone” she would have little difficulty digging up some statistics comparing public schooled children and homeschooled children. You could start with graduation rates, then go to rates of drug and alcohol abuse, sexual promiscuity, smoking, unwed births, abortions, criminal records, divorces, performance on standardized tests, volunteerism, church attendance, college attendance, attainment of scholarships, and on and on. While there are always exceptions, I’m confident that, in general, homeschooled kids do just fine in these categories as well as in the “real world.” I don’t believe our jails, welfare rolls, and psyche wards are crowded with the products of homeschooling. In fact, I believe schooling in a loving home is often the best environment to prepare a child to live their vocation, the “real” life God has called them to. I have no doubt that’s the case in our home.
Here’s a question for homeschool moms of teenage boys: do you think at some point your son will need or require more male attention? I was very struck by Abigail Adam’s insistence that John take John Quincy to France with him, because she believed that young John needed to be exposed to the world, and be with his father. I’m not certain that my almost 13 year old son would thrive being around me and his younger sisters all day long. He gains so much from being with other boys, playing on the football team and wrestling, running track, etc. It’s the coaches and teachers that motivate him to do well out in the world. Please don’t misinterpret me, I’m very open to the idea of homeschooling, yet, I think my son needs to be around other adults during the week.
My husband and I are still flying solo. In otherwords, we have no children yet. But we’re beginning to think about vaccinations. I’ve heard rumours that some parts of vaccinations are derived from aborted fetuses. I’ve heard other rumours that that this is not true. I’ve heard rumours that stem cells derived from aborted fetuses were used in the trial period of the vaccinations, but aren’t used anymore. I’m confused. Does anyone have any authority on this matter? I’m looking for more than opinions – I’m looking for facts.
Thanks.
I was busy yesterday and didn’t get to have coffee and chat, but I have a little comment, if anyone is still around to read it!
Carmen: DH and I went to an excellent state school, The Harvard of the South, and back then, instate tuition was extremely reasonable. Still, I was very poor and borrowed the full amount allowed every year. Then DH went to law school and I had a baby right after graduation. Since I have never worked again, except for those 3 years during law school, he paid for my undergraduate degree, his undergraduate degree, and law school! With 6 children to follow, we have never been able to make up for those 12 years of paying off our college debt. It became imperative to start working on our own retirement accounts! Still, all those debts amounted to approximately 1 year at my daughter’s dream school.
It sounded like our story: DD accepted at a very prestigious secular institution and wanted to go there very much. DH had the brilliant idea of coming home with a loan calculator showing her the debt she would accumulate at the expensive school and the less expensive Catholic institution. The calculator showed how much she would owe in total and per month. It also showed how much she would need to earn to make these payments. This, more than anything else, convinced her to go to the very good state school (but not quite the Harvard of the South
) and graduate debt free. With no debts (or very little!) she will be able to stay home with her children if she marries, or teach school (with her degree in Romance Languages! 
), or become a missionary in Africa. There are so many more options without debt as a burden. I highly recommend the debt calculator; it was a very graphic presentation of the problem!
Jan,
Thanks for setting me straight. I would never want to spread any rumor, let alone one about the Pope.
Upon reading the above posts I have noticed that many of you use the little smiley faces. These are surely cute but many of the sites that they are downloaded from download ad ware and spy ware to your computer along with the smileys. You may not even know that you have ad ware and spy ware until your computer starts to slow down , you get more spam, or worse yet you find you have a virus. My Husband does computer work on the side and his best friend does it professionally and the first thing they do is run Anti spy ware/ ad ware programs. People are amazed that these simple downloads cause all of their computer problems. I am not trying to begrudge anyone their smileys but you may want to run an ad ware/ spy ware check on your computers ( there are free ones out there) or look into things .
Toys:
Every holiday and every spring children must find 3 toys they are willing to give up for those in need. This makes room for the new ones from Grandparents and Godparents. I try to do this after tossing all the broken ones. In summer before pulling out outside toys I put away all hard to clean up toys. When I tell them they get to go outside I usually need the quiet! I forget to have them pick up what they were using first so having easy to clean toys inside makes summer easier.
Defensiveness:
God equips the called. He doesn’t call the equiped. So I always have to remember to pray for words of Wisdom and for the person I’ll talk to before I open my mouth. I’m not good at that but God gives me a little more grace each time.
Speaking of Prayer:
The newest wave of homeschoolers are those whose special needs children are not being served in the public schools. They need tremendous prayer especially since they often hope the treat that they’ll homeschool will trigger the schools into finally implementing the IEP– they don’t always feel up to it.
As a “non-homeschooler” I can see where Anon111 is coming from. There is a faction of homeschoolers who think that homeschooling is the best and the only way to educate children. Some homeschoolers are a bit condescending to those of us who are not called to homeschool. Homeschooling is not for everyone, just like having 10 children is not for everyone. In some cases homeschooling is detrimental to the child and the family. We have to each of us do what is best for each of our children. (That may even be homeschooling some and sending some to school) We are fortunate that we have found an excellent, affordable, traditional, private Catholic school. This is the best situation for our family. I think that Anon111 was speaking out of frustration because her family members are from the “homeschooling is the ideal for everyone so why are you not doing it” camp. I think she was looking for reasons why people feel that it is the best for their children. She has valid concerns and arguments. I don’t feel that anyone should have felt defensive. Why not just answer her questions? Those of us who “away school” but are surrounded by homeschoolers, (both IRL and on the web) start to feel like we have to defend our choices all the time too.
I have a feeling that we are all for QUALITY education…and not just one form. If public school were not working for your child, would you look for another alternative? If homeschool was not working for your child, would you look for another alternative? We as parents may not like to change our opinions or ideas, but also as parents we would/should do what is best for the child and family.
Do you notice that all sides…and I mean every side…feel such a strong need to defend their “side”. It doesn’t matter if it is homeschooling/public/private education. Why is that? Is it like religion? politics? family size? Each side feels theirs is the only way and feels bristled when they are questioned?
There are over-board zealots on all sides of education. I guess I want to challenge each of you…are you one of those people? and why?
Let your family’s QUALITY education shine. Life’s education is all of part of God’s creation. Isn’t that what we all want to embrace?
Not sure if I’m the only woman in America like this, but . . . I don’t really have strong feelings one way or another about homeschool/public school/Catholic school. I have seen all these scenarios work poorly and well. Same with colleges.
So. What to do? We can thoughtfully consider the practicalities, pray with confidence, and then just do what is best for our families. And be kind to those who don’t see it our way.
A pretty good recipe for a lot of things in life, I guess.
Thanks, Danielle, for giving us this forum. The perspectives are fascinating and thought-provoking!
Concerned Friend, I will pray today. Update us when you can.
To Anonymous re: vaccinations: look up http://www.cogforlife.org for info about vaccines that use aborted fetal tissue. You may especially be interested in the statement that the Vatican (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued back in June 2005 regarding this matter, and the faithful’s response to it. It is not a clear-cut choice, but a matter of individual conscience that can be argued both ways. If you want to email me, I’d be happy to tell you what we’ve done, and the ramifications in our family. My email: familymon@earthlink.net. God bless!
To the one asking about vaccinations:
Yes, the MMR vaccination does have the cells of aborted babies in it. We do not get that vaccination for our children because of that fact and it sickens me to know that the innocent babies are being used for that purpose. A good place for information on vaccinations is http://informedchoice.info/cocktail.html
I preface everything by saying: there is no one size fits all!
Liz: “We have friends who sent their daughter to a fine Catholic college (one of the good ones) and she’s now seriously romantically involved with an atheist.”
I understand your point: that there is no “Catholic bubble” that will guarantee an uber-Catholic environment for your kids, 24/7. They will be exposed to the crazy, mixed-up world sooner or later. Choosing one of those 8 or so orthodox Catholic schools certainly isn’t a bad thing, and the environment is definitely more conducive to practice a living Catholic faith (which some kids need more than others; some thrive in a secular school where living the faith sometimes requires a little apologetics, debate and witnessing), but you know what? Kids get drunk and have sex at Steubenville, too. There are no guarantees.
Which is to say I do get the sense that some people might be choosing – or not choosing – a school because of fear. (Something about “What if they go to a state school and lose their soul?” And what if they don’t? Or never would?) That’s not a good way to make choices about anything.
Also, don’t discount the idea of taking a year off to work! You can save a pile of money, gain maturity and responsibility, grow wise in the “ways of the real world” and might either find a terrific apprenticeship for those who aren’t really scholars OR go back to school with a vengeance! Of all the good suggestions offered so far, this one is the one I think is most under-appreciated.
Anonymous who asked about vaccines: please check out http://www.cogforlife.org. If you have any questions, just email me. I don’t give my kids vaccines with immoral origins.
Jen who will be traveling with children for 3 hours in the car: my kiddie potty fit under the mini-van seat and I carried an empty juice jug for emergency pit stops on the side of the road or to avoid waking a sleeping tot.
Amy who is “too big”: my midwife says that the more kids you have, the bigger you are. Not sure if this applies to you or not, but with #6, I was routinely 2 or 3 weeks “bigger”.
re: college debt. I went to a good, but not overly prestigeous, private college and owed $40k afterward. I had an engineering degree, but it wasn’t enough to handle that plus the expensive of a car (I had to get to work) or a new wardrobe (I had to wear suits). My husband (who I met at school, so I can’t say it was a totally bad thing), did ROTC, but it only covers up to a certain amount, so he owed too.
I second the recommendation of Dave Ramsey’s book and programs. It would be much better to have done 6 or 8 years to get my degree and been debt-free, than to push off all that debt for when I graduated. We could not save money for a down payment on a house for years. It was hard, and we still struggle with the idea of saving up for something before buying it instead of just buying it now and paying later.
My parents could not afford to save for our college, and we can’t afford to save for our kids. It is my goal to help my children make the smart decision to work their way through school, do ROTC, get scholarships, barter with the college for a good price, and take longer to get their degree or whatever it takes to minimize the debt.
Other warnings: my SIL was accepted to an Ivy League school. They gave her a nice aid package. Bt every year, they reduced it more and more. What was she going to do – quit? It’s hard to walk away from a half-earned Ivy League degree.
And don’t expect your children to behave appropriately in a drinking, drug or sex-crazy environment just because you raised them better than that. My parents certainly raised me to be better than I behaved. The culture at a school DOES matter.
Michelle R. -
My husband and I have really benefitted from Dave Ramsey’s ministry. We always knew that we weren’t in top financial shape, but hey, since our household income is above 160k & we have good credit, we figured we were pretty good. That is, until we read Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover & began listening to his radio show. The scales fell from our eyes and we began to see that we have been slaves to our debts and that unwittingly we had succumbed to a debt happy culture. As much as we make, we have little savings and for all practical purposes live paycheck to paycheck – like most Americans. We are now working like the dickens to pay off every scrap of debt and be free; free to pay cash, free to pay for our children’s college and free to give.
MOVIES:
The Princess Bride
Much Ado about Nothing (Emma Thompson)
Jane Eyre (Ruth Wilson)
I am David
Anything with Audrey Hepburn (although I am biased, as she is my fav actress)
The Pursuit of Happyness
Bella (coming out in a few weeks)
The Ultimate Gift
The new Saint movies from Ignatius Press are excellent! St. Rita, St. Francis and St. John Bosco were my unexpected favs)
Braveheart
I’m not sure what you meant by non-offensive. I am assuming you meant offensive to the Faith. I do included some pretty violent stuff in my fav list, but these are all history/war movies, so the violence is to be expected. If these type are okay, I highly recommend “Band of Brothers” put out by HBO.
I hope there are a few here that interest you.
US CRAZY HOMESCHOOLERS:
I know nothing I write here will completely “sell” anyone on homeschooling, and it certainly not a prudent use of my time, so I’m keeping it short. THis is certainly not the only nor conclusive reason I homeschool, but one to keep in mind.
In high school, I was in a top-notch academic program. It is the equivalent of taking AP classes as a freshman, and going up from there. Those who complete the program and pass all exams often have their freshman year exempted.
My point is, a school’s academic offers is not the only, nor the most important reason for sending a child to public school. Despite being in this outstanding program, I was still heavily influenced by the secular attitudes in the public school and the lack of respect for personal virtue. As such, this “A student” ended up pregnant at 16.
As parents, our first and foremost job is not raising geniuses; it is raising Saints. If parents believe sending a child into ANY situation would threaten this goal, we are morally obligated to protect our children from this danger. Period
clarification: their college freshman year is exempted
as a person who has done both-i homeschooled my first three children until my oldest was in 3rd grade, my second was in 2nd grade, my third in kindergarten. then, i was lucky to find an excellent public school. very small, very nice people, excellent academics. so, why did i put them in school? mostly because i realized that i am not a very good teacher. they were struggling with reading and writing. we were not being consistent with our schedule. i had to let go of my own pride and realize that i wasn’t doing a very good job teaching them at home. they struggled academically in school for the first 2 months. and then they just took off. my son is now, captain of the math super bowl team-something he had to work hard at…my daughter, who they thought might have to be held back, is now testing advanced in all areas. morally, we get up early and pray a decade of the rosary every day, i reiterate their values often, love god, love of family, love of neighbor. i talk often about them being a light to the world. and, i am not exaggerating, i am told all the time how wonderful my kids are. i attribute this to a sort of homeschool/school mentality that i have-i continue their education even when they get home-is this such a novel idea? we still do special projects, spend quality time together, my 10 year old boy cooked dinner for us last night-homemade macaroni and cheese (not from a box), we listen to good music, we talk, we create, we play games, we read, i can still do all these things even though they go to school. my son would be the first person to open a door for you, he dresses well, he is incredibly respectful of adults-and he loves school and loves his teachers. my daughter, in third grade, often talks to her friends about her faith, they ask her what church she goes to. i tell her how her joy, her love is an example of gods love to people who may not understand god yet. she takes this very seriously and is well known for her kindness. i am not trying to brag….i just want say that even parents who put their kids in public schools, still care about their childrens’ character as well as their education. sometimes, it just really is the best choice for a family.
Michelle Reitemeyer: would you email me at familymon@earthlink.net? I have some questions for you about vaccines. When I click on your name, my browser won’t display your webpage, so do you mind emailing me? Thanks! PS — earthlink will send your email to my spam folder, but don’t worry, I check that folder every day.
Hi Anonymom! I graduated from Christendom 5 years ago this May, and I didn’t realize how much the price tag had gone up! I think the whole package when I started in ‘99 was just $18,000 or so. When I said that what I got from my education was “priceless” I meant just that: it is an improvement and expansion of the quality of my intellectual and spiritual life that a particular price cannot be assigned to–a human quality that is non-quantifiable. But I certainly realize that living at school, paying professors, etc., etc., had a concrete price tag attached, and must be evaluated in that light.
melissa, I absolutely agree with you! And I really like your concept of “worthy” debt. Yes, an education (like a mortgage) is a worthy cause.
Just two more small points to consider about college education: firstly, I agree that taking 6-8 years for a degree can be worth it to be debt-free, but if one chooses that path, one should be aware that there is sometimes a good deal of cost in one’s social life. That is, friends graduate, get jobs, marry, move away, before you. If you make friends easily, this is probably a minor point. But for an introvert who makes only a few friends over a long period of time, this could make college a lot more difficult. Just another factor to consider. Secondly, I think the idea of working and saving for a year before college is a good option, as well as working for a year afterward while living at home.
Carmen, on College Debt.
I haven’t read any of the other comments, so please forgive me if I’m repeating. I would recommend against student debt, particularly for women. I have had friends who really wanted to stay home with their kids, but student debt prevented them from doing so. I thought that was such a shame. I think it also applies to men, but women seem more directly involved.
My recommendation would be to knock out two years of local college, with careful consideration of what the expensive school will allow to transfer. She can work her buns off, live at home and save up for 2 years at the expensive school. She can even dabble in a bit of short term investing, if she wants. Or even long-term, which could be used to pay off any debt incurred.
Congratulations and good luck!!!
Re: education of our children. The bottom line is that we all have an awesome responsibility to raise our children in the faith. It is a very difficult process no matter what you decide. It takes a lot of prayer to make the decision. If your kids are in a school your effort should be in being constantly vigilant of what your children are learning and doing in school as well as knowing about the friends they spend time with. If you are homeschooling your efforts are in your busy days of teaching, planning and curriculum choosing. This is not a responsibility to take lightly nor should the decision be taken lightly. With prayer you will know what is the right decision for your family each year.
If you step back and look at all of this, it’s really rather amusing.
All of our emotions aside, it seems as if every Tuesday coffee talk ends up as: do what works best for your family!
(coffee cup “clink” to all of you!)
Hey momofsome, “clink” back at ya!
…isn’t that what the basic summary of Danielle’s book? Do what works best for your family!
nice job momofsome!!
To Diane,
I don’t know about others here, but when I have used ’smileys’ in emails here, they have been because of my typing the characters in. I have never pasted a smiley onto Danielle’s blog.
Do you know how to make smileys with just a combination of maybe 3 typed keys? It’s pretty fun!
Here is a big smile for you, done with a colon, a dash, and a capital letter ‘D’!
Catherine Post,
I stand corrected
and I apologize. I just cringe every time I get a ton of these in E mails from my In laws and know that within a week Hubby will get a call that their computer, which he built ,is not working again. Hubby grumbles to me and then goes and runs a spy ware sweeper and all is Ok again until they realize that their smiles are gone and download the program again ARGH ! Because of this I try to spread the word. Thank you for letting me know these ones are Ok. I will not admonish anyone about it again 
Hi Everyone,
I went to Ball State in Indiana. They had an excellent Newman Center. Actually they have a program where students can live there. It’s called the Christian Leadership Program and I was in it for two years (junior and senior year.) It’s a great program, we did an internship (mine was in High School youth ministry both years), and had to to a certain number of hours of cleaning, social time, and internship and we got free room and board!
On debt: CLP and having many jobs during college enabled me to graduate debt free! Of course I had $7 in my checking account, but hey – it was so worth it. I had a great college experience and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Now, my husband had some student loans and he went to Law school right after we were married so we have debt from that. That debt (and some other things) kept me from staying home with my daughter for the first year of her life. I had to work full time but luckily I was able to take her with me. We’ve been following Dave Ramsay’s debt reduction plan and in 4 weeks I get to go part time!! I’m so excited to at least be a part time SAHM. Our goal is to get me to stay at home full time. Pray for us!
beth,
what kind of job did you have that let you take your daughter to work?
i am desperate to find something like that!!
You have to think about smilies now! I went to type ‘I was oldest of 8′ within parenthesis and saw a smilie in sunglasses pop up where the 8 and parenthesis were!
On college debt: please tell your daughter not to overdo it.
I’m so glad we have $0 debt-except that pesky mortgage. My husband is a cop and still hasn’t completed his degree but gets paid just as much as his friends with Bachelors and Masters degrees with outsatnding loans. Sometimes the prestige of a degree doesn’t pan out depending on your career field. I have not completed my degree either, but I stay at home with our five kiddos-there’ll be time for that later.
My husband and I came from lower middle class families and knew that the opportunity to attend university would be on our own tabs. We both decided to enlist in the US Navy (without any regrets) to aquire employable technical skills and college money. I refused to allow my blue collar parents to dip into their retirements for me like so many of my friends did. As veterans, our classes (state school is covered by the GI Bill and the Hazelwood Act) are covered and the military afforded me the ability to see much of the European Theater:)
Right out of the gates my husband and I started having kids (and they haven’t stopped arriving
I guess my point is that there are so many paths to take toward careers and education-they needen’t be pricey or traditional, and some offer unique opportunities.
Too late for tuesday but if anybody is still reading these, but my 2 girls, 4 and12, dance at a christian but not catholic dance studio and the older one is getting to really advance stuff and loves it. At the studio, they have a prayr at the begining and the end of class and sometimes have one of the students say the prayr. my daughter is worried a teacher will call on her to say it and she doesn’t know how to say a protestant prayr. what should she do?should she say a hail mary? would that cause problems?
please help. : )
Which is better, Tea or Coffee?
Dance Studio: How about a simple “Our Father?” Everyone knows it everyone says it — she doesn’t have to worry about offending people, but it’s a good catholic prayer! =)
One last thought on college:
I think big state schools may be fine for extroverts. They attract a HUGE range of students, and if you work, you can find a group you fit in with.
BUT for an introvert who’s not great at making friends, a smalelr private school might be better. SInce these schools have very unique “personalities”, it makes it easier to find a good group of friends since the student bodies are somewhat self-selecting….
also, Interest Rate matters a lot on student loans. My husband and I consolidated ours when he finished grad school. Interest rates were low, and we got bonuses for electronic payment, on-time payment, etc.
Our rate (we consolidated about 4 1/2 years ago) is now something like 1.9% — practically free money. When parents have offered to pay them off for us, we’ve told them to invest the money instead and give it to us later— after all, they’ll get at LEAST 3% on their investment…..
I am troubled by a lot of the comments that seem to suggest that only “practical” education is necessary for a SAHM. The Catholic Church has an INCREDIBLE tradition of female intellectuals, and we also have a tradition of education as a means to perfect the intellect (to better understand Christ and his Church) rather than as simply a means to acquire professional skills. Education as a means to an end is really a very recent (and Calvinisty!) thing……
A good liberal arts education means that papal encyclicals are easy to read. It means you’ve learned how to argue forcefully yet cordially and can act as a better apologist. It means you always have something interesting to think about as you do neverending chores while surrounded by preverbal children. (Who can be bored when you’ve got Plato to think about?!)
It means you can understand the thinkers who influenced some of our greatest saints!
If your child is inclined in this direction, let her follow her dreams…. the church DOES need intellectuals… and especial orthodox woman intellectuals so we can take back “women’s spirituality” from the crazy godess-worshipper types!
Student loans are doable. We have a smaller house than we would otherwise, and only one car, but the joy of meeting Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Jerome, Thomas More, etc. in my Western Civ. Classes is so much greater than a little bit of extra cmfort would be!
(One downside of a liberal arts education– it inspires Booklust and you will never, ever be able to find a house that easily fits your library……)
But once again, it depends on your kids… some enter college knowing exactly what they want to be and what they want to do. But if they love school and learning for their own sakes, liberal arts is the way to go.
OK… sorry for the babble…. but baby boy was nursing and I was glued to my chair anyway. Now, back to the laundry…..
SAHMMIE,
Sorry if someone already responded to your comment, but I just had to throw in my 2 cents. My husband and I both graduated from TAC and had a total debt of around 50-60k. He went on to school while I worked. When he graduated with his MBA, I stayed home and we had our 5 kids. ( there’s a bit of overlap there, but we managed just fine…)
I would never trade that education for less debt. Not only did I meet my husband there, but I gained a moral and educational foundation that is hard to rival. In my opinion, that experience has no price tag. It is in college where most people find their “friends for life” and while they are there they definitively decide the path that their life will take. I’m sure most of our children would survive state schools… but I’d rather have my kids be enriched by their college experience. Ideally, that they emerge as stronger Catholics, bolstered by their intellectual formation and ability to reason and argue, and also see that they are not alone in this pursuit.
Again, to each his own… but I wanted to assure you that you need not “feel sorry” for those of us who have a Liberal Arts degree from one of those schools. I am very grateful and feel extremely blessed.
Thanks, Megan & Deirdre for your posts. I truly enjoyed reading them. I wonder if you have heard of or read any works by Mary Reed Newland? Sophia Press has been re-releasing them lately. I have only read a few of the originals and I just love her style. Now, here is a woman who would probably avoid “unnecessary/unworthy” debt, but had a lot of kids (7?) and had SUCH a love for the Church and a way of making it clear that she valued education in women without being showy or empty.
My favorite so far:
We and Our Children
The Year and Our Children
The Family and the Bible
(she has a good one on saints whose title escapes me)
I love that she has such concrete and creative ideas for really imbuing our children with the faith. For me, it has been so helpful because I have the desire to raise good Catholics, but don’t always feel up to the task.
Thank you, Melissa, for your post. I too really enjoyed Megan and Deirdre’s thoughtful posts on the lifelong benefits of Catholic liberal arts education. And I love that you mentioned Mary Reed Newland. She’s inspired me as well. My mother’s dear friend (in fact, my brother’s godmother) was Newland’s sister, and so my mother knew her and recently gave me all the Newland books she had. Newland’s own mother was a doctor. I think she’s a shining example of the influence that a well-educated Catholic woman can have on her family, her Church, her culture, and her world. As Deirdre pointed out, there’s an incredible tradition!
“At home, my kids have learned to assume that people will be interested in talking about ideas. They assume that they will be treated with respect (more or less), and they assume that they ought to be polite and kind. They assume that they will have to be patient with people who aren’t their own age, and that it’s possible to carry on a conversation with someone who’s not your own age.”
Bingo. Mine, too. They go to public school by the way, but my husband and I are very seriously about our God-given responsibility for our children’s hearts, minds and souls.
This is what concerns me about the homeschool-public school debate. It’s as if ONLY homeschoolers will take the time and energy to actually engage their children. Not true. Parents can and should do that, wherever they choose to have their children taught math or science.
For a long time now, I’ve considered homeschooling. For a long time now, I’ve rejected it for reasons that have to do with my conscience and my family. But I haven’t rejected my responsibilities as a mother, I haven’t rejected my children or handed them over to “the state.”
If only homeschoolers and public schoolers would stop generalizing about each other!
I read with interest the eloquent post by the the homeschooled teen. It could have been written by my own teenager. We are not the great unwashed!
Here’s what I know: If you love God and your children, if you are engaged in the work of parenting, if you see yourself as responsible for educating your child no matter where they go to school, if your house is filled with the love of God, with books, music and wonderful conversation, you are probably doing well by your kids.
Whether you homeschool or public school or unschool or private school is secondary to HOW YOU PARENT!
PS: A close family member “homeschools,” which to her means enrolling her children in music, sports, weekly homeschool “schools” and so many other activities that they are home maybe one or two days a week.
Yet she has told me that her children will attend public school “over her dead body.” She clearly feels that our top-ranked schools are worthless. I disagree.
My high-school son, for example, isn’t on drugs, engaging in sex or antagonistic to other family members. In fact, he is writing a novel in his spare time, taking honors classes, happy to attend church and in every way a wonderful boy.
Even if you have chosen differently for your children, please allow for the possibility that public school parents, too, are raising Godly, well-rounded and creative children.
S:
“All the Newland books she had…”??? Wow! What a gift! From your previous posts, I feel happy for you and your kids that they won’t sit idle, collecting dust! (the books, OR your kids.)
I’m not sure where some of you have read above that a Catholic woman should remain uneducated and avoid accruing college debt since she might later become a SAHM. It seems to me that everyone who has posted agrees that advanced schooling is important. WHat we don’t agree on is to whether anyone (read men & women) should acquire great debt in pursuit of that education.
And, while I’m at it
, I’d like to mention that it is possible to understand and appreciate/understand literature, philosophy, science and the arts without attending a small private Catholic college at $25k a year. Some of this attitude comes off to me as a form of “elitist Catholic royalty”. To be in the club you have to have had over 4 kids, home schooled and send your kids to the “right” Catholic colleges. Give me a break!
Elaine: Loved your post!
If somebody would have sat me down and said, “Look, you’re not wealthy and neither is your family. Study literature if you like, perhaps as a minor, but major in business or communications so there’s some chance somebody will hire you to be something more than a glorified secretary when you get out of here,” that person would have done me an invaluable service.
–This happened to the kids ( and son in law) of a good friend of mine. There is no disputing they enjoyed their time at the Catholic College, but unfortunately, once they were done, they had to go on to a regular university and almost completely *start over* to get into a field that would produce a sustainable income.
I have been enjoying the posts and am now at home after spending the week with my recently widowed mother-in-law. This has been a stressful time for our family. I so appreciate Danielle providing a place for us to chat and relax a bit.
and I feared I would never become a mother. But God has a plan. I had my first son in 1994 and by that time, we had paid off the school loan and refinanced our mortgage twice. I was able to go on an extended “maternity leave” which is now going into its fourteenth year. I felt so blessed to be able to have that time with my son. When people ask if I am still practicing law I say yes, I am a lawyer with one client. I have done pro bono work and even a little “consulting” for a non-profit agency but my main job has been mothering. I still keep up with my attorney registration and continuing ed. It is my insurance policy. I don’t know if I will ever go back to fulltime legal work since my little one is just five, but I am so thankful to have a profession I can fall back on. I think everyone should have some trade, skill or profession they can use to take care of themselves and their families if tragedy should strike or even economic circumstances change. Sorry to go on so long but just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Debt: I had $30,000 in law school debt when I married my husband. He had no debt at all because his parents were able to pay for his education. We married in 1990 and I was working as a public defender for peanuts ($20,000 in NYC–in 1989) but a few months afterwards I was offered another job in the court system, with a significantly higher salary. Although I did not enjoy the work as much as I did Legal Aid, I felt that since we were recently married and had bought a house I should take the higher-paying job. After a few years we became concerned that “nothing was happening” in the baby department
Regular Mom, I think you just hit on something that brings the two topics together…HSing and Catholic colleges.
Think about it: isn’t it strange that – usually – the HSing moms go for the Catholic colleges and say that you need the Catholic college for the great liberal arts/Catholic ed? Well, if HSing works to give the foundations of a great Catholic education, wouldn’t you think that it’s possible to continue to “HS” ourselves in the liberal arts and catholic faith in our later teen/adult years?
Funny this conversation is happening now b/c last night on EWTN there was an ad for Christendom, promoting the idea that the real reason for higher education is not vocational, but to be really educated, liberal arts, etc. I can agree with that idea, but there is no reason that you can’t do the great books while you are getting that more practical degree in something that’s going to pay you a lot more. (And my problem with the orthodox Catholic colleges is that some of them are notoriously lax in their academic standards in fields other than theology, etc.)
Also, there are exceptions, e.g. if your passion is philosophy then by all means go to one of the Catholic schools and prepare to get your PhD in phil. and then you can be a professor. OR if you really think Catholic liberal arts and debt is the way to go, with no real idea about practical employability, please do feel free to choose that, but what is never mentioned is you are also choosing a life of financial worry.
Some people handle that better than I do, I guess. But when I see other threads that worry about job security, medical benefits, cars that die, washing machines that must be replaced, I get all itchy. I remember how panicky that life was. Now? All those stresses are gone. An appliance dies? I get a new one. And probably upgrade. Another kid needs braces? No sweat. Credit card debt? Unheard of; paid in full each month. Also, our financial situation helps out other families that didn’t make the same choices we did and can’t manage to pay their bills. We give a lot to our church, to religious orders, worthy charities, etc. So don’t think it’s all about me going to get my teeth bleached or go to a spa for the weekend. Which I also do; my husband loves it when I take care of myself. But hey, we earned it.
This is not for braggings’ sake I do this; I am anonymous after all. I do this to point out how very different my life is now from how it used to be. We have almost no stress in our lives regarding the material things, but that sense of “no anxiety” definitely spills over into other areas of our lives, no question. And I can only point to the right degree/career path that did that. More power to you if those things are easy for you to handle. I couldn’t, so I didn’t.
Elaine, I just wanted to say I think your post was great and made alot of good points.
Someone mentioned how if you did a study comparing homeschoolers and public schoolers, the public scholers would be the ones with the pregnancy, abortion, drug use etc.
Well, why not do a study comparing apples to apples, that is students from homes that carry the values we uphold, our faith, morals, family time etc. I’m sure you would find the results would show that public school kids from faithfilled families do just as well as HS kids from faithfilled families.
Just as HS families tire of people telling them that their kids are not getting socialization I tire of hearing the HS’ers stereotype all public school kids.
I have great admiration for homeschoolers. I sometimes wish I could give my kids the education they get at a public school at home. I really can’t match it but I do give credit to families that can.
As for college, I left a small Catholic college my freshman year and found my faith at one of the most liberal universities in the country. God works in many ways.
To Elaine and PM:
Thank you for posting your thoughts. I agree! For me, home was my source of strength in a confusing outside world. As much as I loved going to school (and I did, I was a social butterfly), there was nothing better than knowing that my parents and my siblings were there for me when I returned home each afternoon.
So peer pressure can be bad, we all know. But it can be good as well. I put the peddle to the metal in AP History and English because I wanted to prove to my teachers that I wasn’t just another dumb blond. My hard work paid off, I passed my AP exams with the highest marks and I was able to get full college credit for those courses. I learned those years that no matter what color your skin was, or how great of an athlete you were, or how much money your family had, if you worked hard and kept at it, chances are that you would suceed.
Which brings me to another point: good teachers. I had a teacher who changed my life when I was fourteen. She taught Art History and applied arts. I knew then and there that I was going to study in New York (just like her) and work in a gallery (just like her), that there was more to life than the sleepy bedroom community that I was born and raised in. My French teacher inspired me to study abroad (which I did later). I ended up going to school in Manhattan and have a degree in art history. I worked in a gallery on Madison Ave.
There’s so much negative talk about school on this board. Honestly, I never considered my public high school education to be lacking, or the peer pressure to be so overwhelmingly horrible. Yes, teenagers can be stupid and mean, but so be it. Old people can be selfish and crotchety. Should we write them off because they are in a bad stage of their lives? Should we not hang out with our grandparents and parents because they are a little too “set in their ways”? I had my feelings hurt in high school by other girls, but you know what? I got over it. I soldiered on. A little bruised, but wiser in the end. What mattered most to me, and will always, was my family. That was permanent. High school was simply stepping stone to college.
Thank you J for your thoughts. I too have seen already teachers have an amazing and wonderful influence on my children. I have seen them flourish in every aspect of their being. Teaching is a vocation I have high regard for.
I also had some great teachers in high school that influenced me. Maybe sometimes people have a limited view of what public school is or maybe they live in an area where the schools are really rough. I can understand that.
However, sometimes the need to validate our own choices can be at the heart of why we choose to tear down any form of schooling that is not our own whether it is public, private, Catholic or homeschooling.
I try to keep that in mind when I hear comments from individuals with negative views of schooling choices.
I have been reading this conversation for most of the week, but I’m always a bit shy about commenting for the first time on a blog.
It looks as if I grew up in a home similar to those of anon111’s relatives. At one point when I was in my teens, my mother decided we could no longer talk with our neighbor (one of the most innocent Catholic girls you’d ever meet) because she went to public school. The homeschooled teenagers at church were all boys, so I was very lonely. I was the teen who would walk by people I knew without saying hello because it was easier to be rude than to try to talk with someone outside my family. I kept my faith, but only through the grace of God.
For college, I went to a very good state university. I graduated with high honors in music with a minor in Latin. The following year, I married another Catholic and we are expecting our first child. For the most part, I am your “poster alumna” for Catholic homeschooling.
My sister did not fare as well as I did. She lost her faith in her early teens. When she was 18, she had only finished 9th grade, despite the fact that she is very bright. She is now a teen mother, working a entry level job and studying for her GED.
My family is not the only family where both faith and education suffered because of homeschooling pride. It breaks my heart to see parents working so hard and yet refusing to open their eyes to the fact that homeschooling is not working for their family. Oddly enough, neither my sister nor I have ruled out homeschooling. I pray that if one or both of us chooses that route, we keep our children’s best interests in mind and don’t let our pride get in the way if it is in their best interest to send them to school.
Alice,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I understand what you are saying. I sometimes worry about families that have a very rigid attitude about a schooling choice and regardless of how it is working for them will not look at other options because they are convinced by the people they hang out with or a theology they have embraced that there is only one way. That includes all of us, public, private, homeschooling, we all need to be fleixible and consider other options when we see our kids, family, marriage are not thriving.
We are in public school now but would consider Catholic or homeschooling if we need to. Evaluating our choice is an ongoing process for us. I used to be very fundamentalist and rigid in my thinking myself. I see things differently now and I find that very helpful. I also find that I learn alot from families who homeschool/Catholic school and I enjoy that connection.
Congratulations on expecting your first. Anticipating the arrival of a child is a very exciting time.
I agree, PM. The reason I visit homeschool blogs is because they give me ideas for how I can be a better mother to my children in everything from creating a domestic church to maintaining our values.
I really appreciate homeschoolers’ choice and will continue to consider it for my own family. Until then, my kids will stay in public school and I will continue to attempt to shed light on how this choice, too, can work to the glory of God.