It’s Tuesday! Time for Coffee Talk. So, spill it. What’s on your minds this week?
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April 8th, 2008 Tuesday Coffee Talk162 comments to Tuesday Coffee Talk |
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Copyright © 2012 Danielle Bean | A Little Leaf Design |
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Pornography isn’t the problem for my dh, thank God, but it started something (“m”) that he says a lot of men probably struggle with…I don’t know…not something that anyone really talks about, nor should, except with a confessor. Don’t really want to elaborate, you know?
Okay, and now Simcha will you email me? I am probably being a total moron, but I can’t find your address on your blog.
No, you do not need a special yogurt maker. You can look up instructions online or get them from your local extension office. This is how I do it:
I take a gallon of milk and heat it on the stove to about 180-190. Then I cool it to 125-130. yogurt culture dies at temps above 130, but you have to heat the milk to 180-190 to kill any other bacteria that may interfere with the yogurt culturing. *(yes, even pasturized milk will still have bacteria that need to be elimintaed.) then I stir in a cup of plain yogurt (the first batch you will use a store-bought yogurt.) then I pour into clean and sterilized (if you have a dw, just run the jars through the heated dry cycle when washing…) quart jars and one pint jar. (this pint jar is the starter for the next culture. Now, some recipes tell you to put it in a fancy yogurt maker at this point, but I have never used one. I put a cake pan in the bottom of a cooler (because our coller leakes…if yours doesn’t, you can kip that part…) and place the jars in it. Then I pour in water at about 130 degrees. I also fill a couple of extra jars with boiling water and set those around the perimeter of the cake pan to give off extra warmth. Then I close the lid, and do not reopen it for 3 hours. When I do, I have a gallon of yogurt. It all goes in the fridge and is eaten within 2 weeks. Simple. It takes about 15 minutes of active participation. Again, I’d look up a recipe online. I use whole milk. And I also add about a quarter cup of dry milk powder before heating the milk.
You can often get yogurt makers (and pasta machines, and other nice-to-have but nonessential kitchen items) at yard sales, flea markets and thrift shops for only a few dollars. This is a good way to try something when you’re not sure if you really need it and would use it. Or if you have a friend who has one she no longer needs (I would add, ask an older, 45+ friend who may have had one in her hippy-dippy, orgo-crunchy youth and no longer uses it), you could ask her. Just an idea.
Hi Pidge,
I’m so sorry to hear about your miscarriage. I’ve lost two pregnancies too, so I know the pain … it just kind of makes everything look gray for a while.
About housecleaning: I share your frustration, too, and one of the hardest things about housecleaning is that it never ends. You clean something, it looks good for a short while, and then you are back to messy before long. It can be easy to get a defeatist attitude.
I know what helps me is to capitalize on the rare moments where I am feeling a real desire to clean — I feel this frenzy to attack the dust and I just go with it as long as I can. Inviting company over also helps — it means I HAVE to vaccuum!
And to be honest, I do find there is a psychic lift I get when things look less chaotic and all the toys ares put away, the bathtub drain is de-haired, etc.
But, like you, I also am willing to forego this on days when I feel a desire to do something else, or when I just need some me-time, or when my husband and I need some us-time. I don’t advocate living in squalor, but I also don’t want to live in a museum, either. To be honest, if I die tomorrow, I won’t wish I’d spent more time cleaning the floors. It’s all about balance.
On a different topic… a couple of interesting items related to Humanae Vitae and NFP… I think I came across these via the comments on Simcha’s blog, but my memory of yesterday is already fuzzy:
Humanae Vitae: Grave Motives to Use a Good Translation
http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/bonilla.htm
Important–Read this!
http://justinespired.blogspot.com/2007/10/important-read-this.html
Wife: I hear ya loud and clear on the “m”. And I understand the feeling of betrayal.
My baby is 6 months old now, and I keep waiting for those “feelings” to return. I feel like an empty well. But I love my husband so much. And I know that physical intimacy is vital to our relationship.
I have asked my husband to try to tell me before 9 pm (even better before 8 pm) if he is “interested.” This gives me a chance to plan my evening: not start on a procrastinated chore, schedule a warm bath, and start thinking of all the wonderful things my husband does for me. During our “session” I focus hard on HIM and not on the dirty dishes, the piles of laundry and tomorrow’s to-do list. If you feel comfortable try offering him specific guidance just because they really don’t like it much if you can’t wait for it to be over. I wouldn’t like it much either, if he were that way.
It is worth the 20 minutes of lost sleep to strengthen this part of your marriage.
There were certainly some important issues brought up here. My opinions are just that-
1. Being in the mood. Intimacy is called the marriage debt for a reason. It is what we owe our husbands and what they are entitled to. It is my thinking that there is no such thing as “being in the mood”. This is my husband I love him and I want whatever he wants. I have a considerate husband and he knows when I am deathly tired or deathly sick. And he will say to me can you take a nap tomorrow, will you feel better tomorrow and that is my #1 priority from that moment on and to show some enthusiasm until the next evening.
2. A messy house. I have to confess that I shared Simcha’s reaction to the article. And I don’t agree with Simcha on everything- I mean really McCain!
. But love her too and the great perspective she has on being a mother and seeing the humor in everday life. There is just an overriding sense of “I’m better than her” that came through to me. For the ladies who admonished that rest of us that if only we got up early and worked hard we could have a clean house- if you have 5 kids or fewer you have absolutely no idea. Keeping a house w/ 5 kids or fewer is very doable. Beyond that you are talking about a whole other reality. Obviously we should all do our best. But I’ve known people w/ the perfect home whose children can barely read, whose children are not allowed to do art projects or own stuffed animals because they don’t “look good”. Moderation in everything. Let’s all do our best and encourage one another! Not look down on one another.
Love to all!
Mary
It’s evening here at the Jersey shore, and instead of coffee, I am now having wine.
Perhaps we can have a Never Drink Alone Talk sometime.
Hey everybody,
Thanks to danielle for allowing these tuesday coffee talks. although I really got alot of inspiration out of Elizabeth’s recent posts, I honestly did feel like she sort of threw her friend under the bus. Really, she truly could have made the same point by skipping the example altogether or at least leaving out some of the embarrassing detail. I did find it slightly amusing that she did not give such graphic, or humiliating, detail about the condition of her own house in it’s not so perfect stages. I don’t know….I guess it’s a good lesson in offering advice and cerrection. Sometimes there’s a fine line between helpfulness and condescension. I felt all of the other things she wrote were really helpful, though.
oops. I goofed up on the word “correction”. Ah, well, ladies. Nobody’s perfect, huh?
I didn’t have Simcha’s reaction, but I loved her reaction just the same.
I read Elizabeth’s article in the context of her entire blog which is very encouraging and supportive of family life. I did not believe that she intended to put anyone down. And when I read Danielle’s understanding of the same article, while different from my own, it affirmed my belief. And if Elizabeth Foss reads my little comment, I hope she knows how much I love her blog, and how helpful it is to my home schooling efforts and even my house keeping goals.
Simcha came along and stood up for all women who have trouble making a visibly beautiful home for their family and then feel like failure after reading or seeing something that says (or that they interpret as saying) they should be doing so. God bless her!! When I read Simcha’s comment, I suddenly felt like I had a best friend in cyber space who stood up for me. I make every effort to up with housework, but as I said before, my house is in serious disrepair.
Thanks Simcha. Thanks Danielle. Thanks Elizabeth Foss. For me, this was the best Coffee Talk yet!
Just wondering how much time your husbands spend with your kids in the evening? Is there a reasonable amount of time? Do they play with the kids at all? Struggling to find an acceptable balance over here.
Wife,
I get your drift. It is embarrassing. I bet more people struggle with this than care to admit.
A book that helped me relate better to my husband was “The Five Love Languages” by Dr. Gary Chapman. The best thing we can do is keep working at sanctifying our marriages. It’s what God wants us to do to be happy.
# SueB on 08 Apr 2008 at 6:51 pm Wrote: “It’s evening here at the Jersey shore, and instead of coffee, I am now having wine.
Perhaps we can have a Never Drink Alone Talk sometime.”
Well, I have to admit I am totally jealous, because the Jersey Shore is my favorite place in the world to be, especially with a glass of wine and the water lapping in the background. I like your idea of a “Never Drink Alone Talk” TEE HEE…..
I am someone who would love more than anything to have a tidy house, but with six kids, one with special needs, and with chronic health problems myself, I find it very difficult to keep up. Getting up earlier is not an option for me as the medication I take makes me extremely sleepy. The main thing I got from Elizabeth’s article is that we should discern what God’s will is for us. Right now I feel like God is teaching me that I’m not in control, that I need to be patient and let go of my perfectionism. He wants me to seek Him first, and knows that I would have a tendency to make a god out of having a perfect house. I do keep things pretty clean (the disorder is another matter) but I also have hope that one day things will get easier and I can keep up better and teach my kids to help more. I have learned a lot about myself and about God from NOT having a perfect, tidy house, if that makes any sense. I also think we can’t judge anyone. We have no idea what anyone’s individual circumstances are. God bless!
Joan – Our Familia group was invited to participate in creating a ‘gift’ for the Pope, which would then be delivered by a delegation who will be meeting him. So, our group decided to create a Prayer Bouquet for him. We offered Masses, rosaries, Our Fathers, Hail Marys, Glory Be’s & Chaplets of Divine Mercy.
To Mom of Boys — My oldest had a hard time entertaining himself at that age, too. I think it’s because he was the oldest and always had me to entertain him, but part of it could have been age. When our second was born, he had a hard time adjusting & learning to play by himself – he was used to having my full attention whenever he wanted. However, he’s gotten better with age (he’s now 10). He also was and is a very active child. He has a hard time sitting still, even for school work! That’s been something that I’ve had to adjust to over the years by changing my teaching style or the materials I use with him. Even though he is probably my most challenging child to homeschool, I still love that we homeschool and don’t regret the decision.
I have to admit, I’m with those who were really taken aback by Elizabeth’s post. She has a wonderful way with words, but I thought this particular post was, frankly, shocking in its lack of tact…to put it mildly.
Yes, she may have asked her friend for permission to discuss it on the blog but, I’m sorry, I find it extremely hard to believe the friend had any real idea what was truly going to presented, the extraordinarily unflattering light in which she was going to be shown. Honestly, I thought it was completely lacking in any semblance of charity.
And in addition, the piece seemed like a direct slap in the face to every single person reading it, if the reader’s own home wasn’t perfectly spotless. If there was any flaw whatsoever, then that person was committing a sin by reading Elizabeth’s blog—or so the piece clearly seemed to me to be saying.
And it wasn’t presented as “this is how I feel” but as “this is the one right way to do it,” an attitude I found incredibly presumptuous, and which Elizabeth’s own writings have indicated she herself doesn’t appreciate from others.
I can say this: my husband loves a tidy house. But he loves even more when the house is messy because the kids and I spent the day at the pool and my six-year-old learned how to swim all the way from one end to the other underwater. He thinks a little clutter is a more than adequate trade-off.
In Luke Our Lord tells Martha that Mary’s approach—sitting and talking rather than tidying up, even for such an exalted guest—was His preferred way. This piece seemed to directly contradict that. Which is why I cannot understand everyone who’s praising it so passionately.
And by the way, it is not lost on me that I am perhaps being uncharitable in making such public criticisms of the piece. In my defense, I guess I would say that her post was meant to be public whereas the friend’s house was obviously meant to be private, and that my intentions are every bit as pure as Elizabeth’s seemed to be. Perhaps I am wrong in my views. I’m more than willing to admit that.
Thanks for opening up your blog for discussions like this, Danielle. I think it’s very fruitful and enlightening.
For Amy,
I learned with toddler #3 to nurse on one side right before nap and the other side right before bed and that’s it. Then about 2 months before the baby came I eliminated those as well. It worked well and I did it again with toddler #4 and had similar success.
With toddler #1 I thought I’d probably be nursing until I was old and gray.
Isn’t it fascinating how so many of us can read the same piece and take something completely different away from it?
I read Elizabeth’s blog, and a number of others, regularly, not daily though. When I read that post, I read it with growing horror, even though I read that she discussed it with her friend. I’ve re-read it a couple of times since reading this discussion. (Which I’ve enjoyed very much this afternoon! So much to talk about – I’d love to join in more!) It seemed really like hanging someone out to dry and I was sure that someone out there in blogging land might know who the friend was in real life, and now have more information than they needed.
I’m glad “Another Elizabeth” above brought up Martha and Mary, because that’s what came to my mind when I first read it, and as I read through the discussion and no one else expressed that take I though I must be way off base (of course, maybe I still am, but it’s nice to know I have company!)
I’ve been wondering – Elizabeth’s blog is lovely to look at, and she seems to have an intense visual appreciation of beauty – I bet her husband does too, and I could see how clutter and untidiness could grate on someone with a visual bent more than on others who aren’t as visually sensitive.
It’s just a theory. I have a friend who once asked if I noticed what he’d done in his garden. I’d been there the day before, so I was supposed to notice the difference. I didn’t, unfortunately. But he’d been working on tiny little details that his wife, when she returned later DID notice, being much more aware of those little details than I. She was rapt, so was he because she noticed and appreciated what he’d done for her – and they both realised that if my DH wanted to make me happy, it would be in a totally different way, because while I appreciate a lovely garden, I really don’t notice so much every blade of grass and leaf that’s out of kilter. But my friend’s wife does, and he took the time to make it lovely for her eyes, even though it was wasted on mine.
I’m not trying to make excuses for neglecting housework here (I could, though, I’m good at it!!!
) Just reflecting (out loud…..errr, I mean, via keyboard) on the idea that we all have different sensitivities to certain things – we should recognise that the ideal of making a home a haven for our families is great – but there are many different facets of that haven, different strengths and challenges in creating it and what ‘works’ for one individual, or couple of family isn’t necessarily going to be the priority or facilitate the “haven’ of another.
Thanks for opening up to this discussion, Danielle.
My rule of thumb, if you haven’t used it or looked at it in a year, GET RID OF IT.. The less you have the less there is to clean up !!
Need encouragement,
I understand how you feel, Parents of large families are not always the ones who are discriminated against and get the rude comments. I have been personally accused of being materialistic and selfish because I only have three children. Too bad that the people slinging the accusations have no idea that though I had no problem conceiving ,after four pregnancies of being constantly deathly sick, ending in C- sections, one baby being stillborn, and the next being critically ill, my doctors, husband and I have decided that raising three children was plenty. We did look into adoption but found ,for a couple reasons, that it is not the right thing for us right now. I know many couples, through a support group that I volunteer for , who have lost children through still birth and infant death that face this kind of discrimination quite often. I guess that we must all remember that we are not to judge each other. I understand that it is tough when we are struggling ,to look at someone who seems to have it all but we must resist judging them. If we knew their circumstances we probably would realized that we just may be the ones who are blessed after all .
Well its morning again. I’m ready for cup number 2.
One cute comment: My parents were here last night for bedtime prayers and laughed and reminised about what I do the same and whats different. The kids were on laps not kneeling and still silly and wired from showing off for Poppa and I’m sure we had Jesus laughing. Sometimes I really need more adult prayer time but kid prayer is just great too.
One more thought on Elizabeth: I have a dear friend who has had a few long hard years. Actually more like a decade. When I see her front yard, her weight or hear certain attitudes change I know she’s having a harder time handling life. Since her situation can’t change all she has is how she handles it. When I saw the mess this week it made me sad but at least she didn’t hide who she is. She’s very open and honest with me. A Real Friend. She understood my grouchiness last week, I understand hers. But we love each other enough to call each other forward when we think they can handle it.
Diane (& Needs Encouragement),
You bring up an interesting point that often people who “sling accusations” don’t have the full story. I have been on both sides of this situation – years of infertility and years of children coming very quickly. The hardest/easiest part for me dealing with the infertility was the secrecy/privacy of it all. Except for perhaps your closest friends and family, most people have no idea why or why not you have the number of kids you do. The hardest part of having my children quickly, when I was “older” to boot, was that it was intensely public. Obviously, people could see that I was pregnant – again- and they could look around me and see my very small children. Because of my experience with infertility I generally assume that all couples I meet want a child or another child and are struggling with infertility. Unfortunately infertility is wide spread and it is a heavy burden. Blessings.
Just letting folks know … Elizabeth has addressed some of your concerns in a post today:
http://ebeth.typepad.com/reallearning/
re: Family Prayer
Erin,
For us, with children 7 and under, we pray the rosary every day as a family. I also pray a selection of morning prayers with the kids (ie Angel of God, Acts of Faith, Hope, & Love, 3 Hail Marys devotion, Morning Offering), and night prayers (ie Angel of God, Act of Contrition, & 3 Hail Marys devotion). Grace before meals – & when I actually remember, the thanksgiving prayer after meals. Sometimes we pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet also, in lent we tried to do the Stations of the Cross throughout the week.
Before children, we prayed the rosary together every day, meal prayers. Sometimes we prayed together in the morning before work. I wish we still did…should get back to it.:)
It is important to pray with your children, even if they can’t say them yet because this is how they learn to pray and how they learn the prayers…especially the Sign of the Cross and the Rosary. I remember my mom teaching me the Our Father, Hail Mary, etc. With my children, because they hear them repeated so often in the rosary, they just come to know it on their own. Make the sign of the cross and help the younger kids to do it – it’s always cute watching little ones tap their heads trying to imitate it.
I have a protestant friend married to a nominal Catholic. She agreed to raise the kids Catholic, but it’s so not evident other than they go to mass. Other than that, it’s pretty generic. Meal prayers are no sign of the cross (hold hands) and “God is great. God is good. Let us thank him for this food.” because she thought “Bless us O Lord…” was too difficult for them. It doesn’t matter. They learn from the repitition and the example.
Don’t expect calm and orderliness – if you get it, great! Our rosaries are full of interruptions from the younger ones.
re: Marital Duty
I need to preface this by saying I only got a glimpse at I think the original post and didn’t look at responses.
It is a mortal sin, yes, MORTAL SIN, to deny your spouse’s reasonable request for marital relations. This applies to husbands as well as wives. The marital act IS a duty to your spouse, as well as hopefully a joy. Even if you are “not in the mood.” Of course you could try to explain to your spouse why you would rather not, and they might agree to some other time, but this shouldn’t be ongoing.
One of the major reasons is that it can cause the other person to fall into sin if denied – not specifically referring to porn or adultery here, but obviously that could be also. He or she may actually have a real physical need to prevent something from happening outside the act?
There are some legitimate reasons for not having relations:
1. For up to 6 weeks after child birth.
2. If there is a real danger of miscarriage.
3. If there is a real danger of physical harm to the spouse.
4. If there has been unforgiven infidelity.
5. If they aren’t in their right minds, ie, drunk.
Other questions should be taken to your confessor.
This is NOT my personal opinion. This came straight from a homily and is Church teaching.
If you’re outraged by what I said, or have questions, please listen to these homilies on
http://www.audiosancto.org
2007-09-09 The Marriage Contract (Part 3 in a series of sermons on marriage)
2007-10-14 Series on Marriage, Part 4: Periodic Abstinence and NFP
These are all sermons given at an FSSP parish. There is a huge spiritual treasure in these sermons – literally hundreds of sermons on this website. Solid teachings on faith, morals, etc. They aren’t just your average commentary on the readings of the day. He catechizes us from the pulpit. Pick a topic, it’s probably there.
Danielle says: Tracy, I know you mean well, but you’re being a bit too simplistic and unnecessarily argumentative. Because there are conditions that must be met in order for any act to be considered mortal sin (must be a grave matter, person must have full knowledge of the grave matter, and person must fully consent to the sin), you cannot talk about this subject in such simplistic terms. So much better to remind struggling wives that this is a grave matter and that neglecting your husband in this area might lead him into sin. So much better to encourage struggling wives to talk to their husbands and/or their confessors about this private problem, and try to discover what kinds of things they can do to remedy it. Typing MORTAL SIN in all caps is not going to soften any hearts.
I am interested in a reference to the actual church teaching: Cathecism, encyclical, scripture that teaches it is mortal sin to deny your spouse’s reasonable request for marital relations.
It seems to me that St. Joseph could have made a reasonable request for marital relations.
Perhaps it is just the verbiage that is throwing me off.
Okay, ladies, I am prepared to take whatever you all dish out after reading my post. My sense is that those who have a problem with EF’s post are bothered because she is challenging us to step outside of ourselves and stop making excuses for disorder in our homes. It struck a chord for me because there are plenty of times I’ll make sure I don’t miss “Idol”, but in the morning we are scrambling for uniform pants I should have put in the proper place. The same goes for taking a few minutes at night to wipe down bathrooms, etc. I’ll find myself making time to do everyting except what should be done for those people who matter most. My Mom tells her daughters,”A home should be clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy”. I think Elizabeth is encouraging us to find a healthy balance and in doing so we bring dignity and godliness to homemaking.
Moving on to Tracey(I think) who said the Church teaches that a woman who doesn’t make herself available for relations can lead her husband into adultery,etc. and that it’s a mortal sin to deny him…we should probably put that teaching with the one that said unbaptized children can’t go to heaven. If a man strays because he doesn’t get sex when he wants it, there is something wrong with him and sinful in HIM. Don’t put it on the wife. That’s terribly unfair.
(Just re-listening to above mentioned homilies)
The marital act MUST be refused if there is insufficient privacy, and/or when one partner insists on cooperation in sinful acts, such as contraception.
It MAY be refused for the reasons in above post. Regarding #3 above – grave danger of harming the other spouse could be something like a disease.
The account of the other woman’s house is written with enough literary license she cannot be hurt by it. To give you any further details would compromise that. You’ll have to trust me on this one: I didn’t hurt anyone’s feelings. I did recount the event because of what it meant to my conversation with my husband. It was a startling wake-up call to consider first what happens in my home and what priorities I assign. It was never about her. It was about my home and family and relationships. I’m grateful for my friend’s openness and I’m grateful for the lessons that were sown that day. I’m also grateful for the candor of the other women who plainly spoke to me about misplaced priorities in my own home. While I understand that people have read this post and thought I was being judgmental, I assure you that it was *me* who was being judged by me. As far as providing intimate detail of what was wrong with my home, I have begun to do that. I don’t think anyone needs a detailed list of what was in the 42 trash bags I hauled out and blogged about (it’s just not all that interesting)–I had 42 bags of stuff that didn’t belong there. I have a whole series of posts on housekeeping planned. Over time, you’ll see what was wrong and the changes I made. If nothing else, I do believe I’ve been honest and sincere in pointing to my faults in all their ugly wartiness.I’ve posted a public confession that I’ve spent far too much time online and neglected my home. I didn’t do that to glorify myself. I did it because in all these years of writing, I’ve learned that I have never had a unique experience and I hoped we could support and encourage each other.
For Time and the problem of playtime for daddy with the children – we have the same issue here, because my husband comes home late – or at least, it feels VERY late to me
Usually around 7pm. That doesn’t leave much time for the children to be with him, and we always end up putting them to bed later than we would like, which also makes the time we get to spend alone with each other quite short. I can’t find a better balance for now during weekdays – but we knew we wanted to live as close as it is feasible (read: affordable – we live in a very expensive part of the US) to his job, so the commute wouldn’t take too long. We do make up during the weekend, when we tend to do everything together as a family – and he also has some time alone with the kids every once in a while, when I have to take care of major, noisy cleaning 
We also have many phone calls to daddy during the day – the children are too young to have a real conversation on the phone, but they do enjoy hearing from daddy a lot
I once told my confessor that my husband was a true saint in his patience with me after childbirth. It can be months before I can even think about sexual relations with my husband. In my small mind, nursing mom with c-section healing has a hard time co-exisiting with “hot mama”.
In those months after childbirth (like 6-9!!!) even the thought of it, makes me very uneasy, dare I say even a little green. St. Paul writes that there is a time to abstain, but not for too long. Scripture also says a season for everything.
My confessor said, how great that my husband was a saint. That is what marriage is all about…leading each other to heaven. Maybe God allowed my struggles to help my husband as well as me.
He also said using NFP was heroic, so way to go all of you heroes!!
Wife, I tend to hang around blogs that are a little less…”gentle” and a lot more in-your-face, so I’m a little different from most here. And I’ll never forget what I read on Kathy Shaidle’s blog about that: BE in the mood, whether you are or not. Go all Nike on him; Just Do It. Give him what he needs and even tho he might not expound on it, he really does need it, more than you think.
Men are so incredibly different than women and in a wierd way, there’s been this effeminization of Christianity so that most men aren’t comfortable, not so much “making demands known”, but letting wives know what they’d prefer, that yes, sometimes we need to just do it. Smile, smell nice, and remember Seinfeld? 11 minutes. It won’t kill any of us. And remember the spiritual fruits that it will bear – remember, the sacrament of marriage supernaturally gets “re-done” every time you are together (there’s a whole theology about it; remember, the sacrament doesn’t even happen if sex doesn’t happen!) but there are also a lot of real, physical changes in the chemical sense. All kinds of bonding hormones are released in both of you; think of it as a healing medicine. No wonder it was a man who wrote and sang “Sexual Healing”!
And as a side note, but quite germaine, if you know any priests who are good friends, ask them – in complete anonymity, of course – what percentage of men struggle with this. I’ve asked 4 different priests, from different parts of the country, and the answer might surprise you: most of them. Most.
And as for the clean house thing? I also have a cleaning lady; best money I spend on the house, by far. I adore a clean, ordered house but I don’t adore doing it myself if I don’t have to. You can actually feel the whole family enter the house after she’s been here and see the stress lift off our shoulders…aaaahhhh….*sniff, sniff*…mmmm, Pine-Sol. And to tie the two topics together, when the stress is lessened, the heart is lightened and you can really enjoy those freshly-laundered sheets.
One last comment (I think). I appreciate insights from other, often more experienced wives on this matter. We have been married under five years, and I truly believe that God timed our conversation right because he wants to improve our marriage. It’s already great in so many ways, and this is one area that, as relatively newly married people, we needed to grow. To learn. To communicate. It isn’t something that anyone told us before marriage. We were both thought we were being good to one another – he wanted to be sensitive to my feelings and I was oblivious to his struggle (and now I see how I need and want to be unselfish in more and more ways). Marriage is a constant path toward growing together in understanding one another, as well as growing toward God and leading one another to Heaven. This past week, we grew in communication in a way that we didn’t know we needed, and it has been eye-opening and a grace for us. I am so glad I know this. Interestingly, this came out of a conversation we had as we prepared for a volunteer day at our church. I know God was in this.
And thank you for the reminder of mortal sin, but I must agree that that’s not helpful. If nothing else, perhaps this discussion can serve as an eye-opener to others who might be unaware of just “how men work.” I’m excited to know this and to grow closer to my husband with each passing day. That’s what it’s all about.
I personally find the “just do it” philosophy to be an oversimplification of something very complex. Not being in the mood, to me, is very legitimate and it covers vast number of situations. Do the the “just do it” folks then fake a climax? That causes a whole bunch of problems and insecurities for the spouse that is in the mood, as does does just being on the receiving end of an intimate act.
I believe that “not being in the mood” requires serious reflection and action (and maybe medical and psychological treatment) and communication between the spouses.
I know that we cannot neglect our spouses in this area, but “just doing it” can be as neglectful as not doing it since “not being in the mood” is not merely about a physical act. I have not seen good fruit in the marriages of my friends where the wife is a “never refuse my husband” proponent.
I propose if you successfully “never refuse,” that you also enjoy mutual respect and good communication with some regularity.
Refusal coupled with contempt or a power play is obviously gravely disordered, but otherwise, I agree with Rachel on reasons why a spouse may stray.
I’ve been mulling over this housecleaning topic, and I have to say, I’m glad Elizabeth posted what she did. I guess I took it in the spirit it was intended, as a personal reflection of Elizabeth’s which may or may not be meaningful to my situation (and in my case, it is meaningful). I took it not as a judgment, but as a challenge to help motivate me. In fact, I felt more judged by a few comments left here than by anything Elizabeth said. But that’s ok too. I like to throw all of the ideas into the pot and let them stew – if it results in something that makes me a better Mom or wife, then it’s all good. And in this case, for me, it was. I don’t have the best role models in my extended family, and I don’t even have many IRL Catholic friends who share my perspective on things. Sometimes I rely on ladies like all of you to help me stay on track, and this discussion has done that. So thank you all!
Bravo, wife! You are a wise young bride! I have been married for eight years (still wet behind the ears), but, it actually took me longer than you to learn “how men work.” God bless you! I really enjoy these coffee talks! Dr. Laura’s books have been helpful for me, and were recommended by our orthodox priest. While she is not Catholic, she offers a lot of practical advice.
To SueB:
Not being in the mood and “faking it” are two different things. If we were to wait until both of us were in the same type of mood we might meet up a few times a year, at best. Not being in the mood does not mean not being interested in our spouse, it just means we are tired or sick or whatnot. And 95% of the time “not being in the mood” turns into “being in the mood” once things begin.
It is much like making supper for your family when you are tired and not hungry yourself. You know your family needs to eat and therefore you cook for them, and usually end up enjoying the meal yourself.
There are times that we, as wives, must reflect over our actions. Are we NEVER in the mood? If so, we need to try to understand why and speak to a doctor about that. Do we make our husband feel wanted and desired? Everyone needs that sometimes. And above all, we should not deny marital relations because we want to make our spouse suffer or “to get back at them” for something. If there is a problem in the marriage it should be dealt with outside of the bedroom with communication. Every marriage, man, and woman is different and what is “acceptable” with how often needs need to be met should be discussed in a marriage. Each couple can come to an agreement which may include scheduled intimate times, spur of the moment times, etc.
I’m glad that this topic was brought up because I think every marriage has gone through dry spells and tough times when it comes to this subject and it is nice to realize that it is quite normal and usually fairly easy to get back on track.
I’m not always “in the mood” to pray. I’ve got this and that and the other thing happening, and maybe I’m even mad at someone…..but I do it anyway. And I always come out the better for it.
Sorry, one more thought relating to the homemaking discussion. One (of the many) reason we homeschool is to avoid the “it’s cool to be dumb” attitude that is pervasive in public/private schools. At least is was xxx years ago when I was in school, and I’m sure it’s still there. Have you noticed that it is now cool to be loud/vulgar/messy housed/etc.? Sort of like the old analogy of the crabs in the bucket. When one would try to escape the rest would seek to pull it back down. I appreciate that I can find articles such as Elizabeth Foss’s and Danielle’s that try to inspire and cause us to reach higher, rather than encouraging me to be cool sitting in my mess with the rest of us crabs.
Thank you ladies!
Elizabeth and momofsome:
In my comment, I said my understanding of “not being in the mood” is complex. Elizabeth, if it means what you say, I agree with you entirely, but when others say they have trouble in that area of their marriage, I do not assume that “not in the mood” means what you say.
With so many women and men who struggle from past sexual abuse, with marriages suffering from sexual insecurity and living in a world that has so corrupted the sexual experience, I wanted to comment that “just doing it” oversimplifies the problem of “not being in the mood.” This is anecdotal, but I have several friends that say they never refuse, and they have marriages plagued by pornography addiction of the spouse that they never refuse.
Your analogies to making dinner and praying are well taken. I really have no disagreement with either of you.
The marital act is sacramental and holy. I believe it is my duty to give and receive love to and from my husband unconditionally. The grace of the sacrament enables that, and the Lord is constantly perfecting our love and married love.
SueB,
I’m sorry. I’m guilty of speaking oversimplictically all of the time. Of course I mean except for legitimate reasons which individuals can only discern for themselves. I was speaking generally. Most of the situations here I can personally relate to: pregnancy, nursing hormones, being “touched out”, and just plain tired. My point is that when I make the effort to put myself forth for the sake of a relationship (God’s or my husband’s) it is always blessed by God. I’m only saying this from the voice of experience, and not to make anyone feel guilty because they have limitations. Because, believe me, I’ve got a whole list of limitations for ya!
Thanks!
Making love to your spouse can be the most wonderful bonding binding sacramental experience in the world. However if your dh struggles with porn or has had an extramarital affair (recently!) then you may be left feeling betrayed and angry and used afterwards. The most important thing, is to communicate your needs to your spouse and NOT to think that great sex will cover up deeper wounds that need healing.
Oh no, no, no! This is being all too oversimplified! I am sorry to come on strong but I have a lot of experience with the porn in the marriage issue as do many many other catholic women I am finding. This is not at all about “just do it.” This is a real problem that is very complex. Encouraging a woman to “just do it” is not going to solve the porn issue in her marriage and it is extremely detrimental to encourage this thought. In a normal healthy marriage the just do it philosophy has merit, but not in a marriage where porn is an issue. This then puts the onus of her husbands sin on her-if she would just do it then he wouldn’t have a reason to look at porn. This is a very unfortunate myth. Wife mentioned her husband had this issue prior to their marriage and this issue is a very real addiction for more men than people realize. “Just do it” will not fix the problem-however, it is important to communicate clearly where each of you are at as having relations can be a help in recovery as well -but not the cure. As I said-it’s complex.
Wife-I highly recommend that you look into Christopher Wests (JP II) Theology of the Body. There is a talk on CD of his about Purity for men that is excellent and one for women about who they are in Christ and their vocations called the Genius of Woman. Both are talks by Christopher West from JP II’s Theology of the body. They will help you and your husband see purity in marriage, God’s design for men and women in marriage and how to fulfill your vocations with each other to the fullest.
I will be keeping you in my prayers. May you feel the peace of the Holy Spirit and love of Christ working in your marriage.
My sense is that those who have a problem with EF’s post are bothered because she is challenging us to step outside of ourselves and stop making excuses for disorder in our homes.
—You know that can always be the case when we read something that challenges us. I won’t argue with that. I don’t think we should generalize and believe that it is the case *all the time*.
I am sure a lot of women just simply disagree. At least from what I’ve read here, most who did disagree articulated their *issues* with the article pretty clearly.
It is just like anything else in life…….when you make a decision to do/be/live with something and hear a criticism of it, it naturally makes you bristle. Whether it is, for example, homeschooling or putting your kids in school or painting your bathroom walls orange. Further than that, it didn’t seem like just a *disagreement* with living with messiness, it appeared to be a real treatise on why you shouldn’t live with messes, and that people who do are somehow dropping the ball in some way.
You can say that is just defensiveness…….but we all drop the ball in one area or another. We all just choose which ball not to drop. …which ones are most important to us to keep up in the air. Some ladies really should not be letting that one drop ( or not so far:) and some just have to live with it for now. I guess the trick always is to discern where true change is needed and where *coming to peace* with a less than desirable situation is called for. I see that Elizabeth’s article has really made a lot of people think that through, and that is never a bad thing!
Elizabeth has graciously explained herself here. I am willing to believe what she says is true about why she wrote the article even though I still disagree with how it was written. It’s her blog, and her right to *write*
what she wants how she wants and she has obviously spoken positively to a lot of women.
Great! To God be the glory!
All this discussion about housekeeping has made me think of something Mother Teresa once said (sorry I cannot quote it properly), that the Lord will look not at how much we’ve done, but how much we’ve loved. If we’re talking housework, for me what she said means two things: housework is a labor of love, and I was very happy when Elizabeth Foss’s article reminded me of that. Second, I must realize that the “perfect” house (you know, the house we see in those lovely movies from the ’40s and ’50s… I have a real weakness for old movies
) is not within my reach, nor should be, maybe… For me, it’s true what people say of God blessing the effort – my laziness, distractions, etc must not be in the way.
And of course, I agree with what Danielle wrote today.
But Danielle, if you don’t close the comments here, we’re going to have a Coffee Talk Week and nobody will get anything done!
Dear Virginia,
Thank you for your kind words. It has been very hard on me. This is my 3rd miscarriage (not in a row, thank goodness) and it is the hardest for me. I have a lot of issues that I’m trying to work out concerning Jesus and my relationship with him. Plus the meanness of some people when they found out I was pregnant with #6. There are still some who say the wrong thing when they found out I miscarried. They mean well but…sigh.
That’s why when I read that article, it just seemed to load on more guilt and weight on my shoulders than I needed at the moment. Never-ending cleaning and no time for Mom to get her hair cut or go out with the girls or her husband. I understand what the author of the article was trying to say and intellectually I agree. But my heart is just not ready for it right now.
Thank you so much, Virginia. You heard my pain.
Pidge
http://www.pflaum.com/popesvisit
for free teaching ideas and reproducible activities you can use with students in primary and intermediate grades.